LMBO [L-M-B-O] acronym

Laughing My Balls Off !!

[WS]HD wrote: Ps bell my stepdad has a 53 mg b in the garage hoping to get my hands on it for a restoration in the next few years

That's a nice car but you still place me in the wrong country.
The P1800, or a -56 Sonett 1 is examples of classic cars from my country.

McFate wrote: I'd like to hear a real answer here from a Christian conservative. I'm asking in all sincerity.

How does a Christian reconcile with fiscal conservatism? I understand the social conservative Christian point of view. I don't necessarily agree with it but I understand why some do, sort of, but that is not my question here.

If you read Jesus's words from the sermon on the mount as told by Matthew (the darling saint of liberalism) or John, who seems just a step to the right of Mathew, you should hear Christ warn that between God and wealth, you cannot serve two masters. And that regarding government you should "judge a tree by the fruit that it bears".

Also, there are the later stories of the early church of Saint Peter where the church was a commune where God actually put to death someone who was accused of hoarding wealth.

I understand that these may be a serious challenge to someone's beliefs and politics. I've asked this of my very religious Christian parents and several members of the cleargy and have never received an answer which made logical sense. This issue was largely responsible for me beginning to doubt the beliefs I was brought up with.

I am not an atheist. I do believe there is some force, some being who has an understanding greater than our own who we may join when we leave this life but I have not seen an organized Christian religion which actually urge their congregation to follow "the word of Christ" as presented by the gospels which they claim to follow.

Too much for this thread? Just ignore it. If on the other hand you have a reasoned explanation, please share. I'm listening.

The not serving of multiple masters, as i understand it. encompasses any vise that is diligently over pursued by someone. Money happens to be the vise that nearly all can relate to (thus as to make a piont to many individuals, a common relatable example is best). How does one know when when one is over pursueing a vise? I think we accually know this its sometimes hard to be honest about suchthing, and easy to make excuses to justify the pursuit. Theres a fine line, what i have always told my children on how to know where ones heart is. The thing that you do on Sunday is what you are worshipping.

Thats my take, and has been for little over twenty years when my oldest child was handed to me in the hospital.
The scriptures (i doubt anyway) were not writen to be interpreted differently depending on ones political views. Conservative/ liberal, left-center-right. The teachings are there to gauge your life by, not manipulate to become a tool of someones agenda.
Of course, these are my personal interpretation of the scriptures and should be considered as such.

I aslso believe that religion, no matter the faith is deeply personal and should be respected even if not understood. It seems that there are as many denominations as there are different practices from the same book. the Bible, old testament in particular can be extremely hard to find the actual meaning and purpose of a passage, i have found in my own quest thew the bible and the many teachings it offers one main theme for all to practice Mathew 7:12

Dave, if you went to public school as I do, and you saw the things i see, most of which I cant even say on here, you would understand my doubt in he average American. I am American, and I do see people that have great potential, but that is about 0.5-1% of us.

McFate, the idea with fiscal conservatism is that the poor are helped by people donating money. With certain incentives like tax breaks, this happens a lot now, but if unnecessary programs were eliminated and all of things like helping the poor was left to private non profits (which no one can deny are more efficient than government) less money will be wasted, and more will be accomplished.

You could say I am a Christian, but no matter my religion, I believe that social conservatism is wrong. Why do you think that because you believe something you have the right to make sure someone else isn't happy? I think people should have the freedom to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't impede on the freedoms of another.

Swop great speech... here...this is for you my brother.



Oh and wig....you are a master of spotting the lutiers here...the angels among us are masters of the art.

McFate wrote: I'd like to hear a real answer here from a Christian conservative. I'm asking in all sincerity.

How does a Christian reconcile with fiscal conservatism? I understand the social conservative Christian point of view. I don't necessarily agree with it but I understand why some do, sort of, but that is not my question here.

If you read Jesus's words from the sermon on the mount as told by Matthew (the darling saint of liberalism) or John, who seems just a step to the right of Mathew, you should hear Christ warn that between God and wealth, you cannot serve two masters. And that regarding government you should "judge a tree by the fruit that it bears".

Also, there are the later stories of the early church of Saint Peter where the church was a commune where God actually put to death someone who was accused of hoarding wealth.

I understand that these may be a serious challenge to someone's beliefs and politics. I've asked this of my very religious Christian parents and several members of the cleargy and have never received an answer which made logical sense. This issue was largely responsible for me beginning to doubt the beliefs I was brought up with.

I am not an atheist. I do believe there is some force, some being who has an understanding greater than our own who we may join when we leave this life but I have not seen an organized Christian religion which actually urge their congregation to follow "the word of Christ" as presented by the gospels which they claim to follow.

Too much for this thread? Just ignore it. If on the other hand you have a reasoned explanation, please share. I'm listening.

Great stuff, excellent challenges. I can only speak for myself, and my wife, as we share our principles and beliefs.

A little background so you understand the source. We were both raised Catholic, went through Catholic schools, baptized our children in the Catholic Church, later rejected Catholicism (more on that later), and joined our current Protestant ministry. We are socially moderate (at least on topics of sexual orientation), and fiscally conservative.

You cannot serve two masters. Absolutely. And this is specifically about God and wealth, so there is no ducking this one. Does it mean that we relinquish all material goods in this earth or else we will be serving money? That is doubtful in my mind, because while we are living in the way of Jesus, if we all took on literal lives of poverty and service, the world that God designed would not work very well. What money MUST NOT become is a way of life, an obsession, and its own altar. It must not direct our principles or adjust our morals.

This is further explained by Matthew 19:24. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." In my view, Jesus is telling us that we make our own beds. Live a life of potential distractions (sex, alcohol, money) and you are making it REALLY tough for yourself to keep your eye on the ball. I have a wife, and yeah she is distracting but I honor God. I have an occasional glass of wine, not to excess, and I honor God. I run a small company that makes money; I marvel at my employees' skills and pay them a hugely fair wage; I pay myself a fair wage a little over my top employees; we all pay our mortgages and are trying to save for college; I work hard during the week but don't obsess over wealth; and through all that I honor God. Am I making it harder for me to honor God, by running a company and having to think about money during the work week? Sure, I guess. Will I get to heaven? I certainly hope so, and while I know I've stacked the deck against myself, I am trying to keep my eye on the ball. Which means honoring God, treating my fellow people on earth well, defending my family, helping the poor and disadvantaged, and judging and acting against evil when I see it.

Actually, these very verses cemented our departure from our Catholic parish, and the Catholic Church in general. While there are terrific Catholics out there, we ourselves could not reconcile the wealth that the Catholic Church has amassed (and its defense and protection of predator priests, but that's a whole other issue). We don't have a problem with Catholics - this was just a personal decision, and our own move away from distraction.

"You will know them by the fruit that they bear." I think I've "gotten" a lot of Bible verses, but this is one that I've never had a eureka moment on. It's about false prophets, and for me, it's been about distractions from the main path and how to recognize them. In the context of your question and applied to money and wealth, it makes some sense. Sounds horrible, but in Bible study I've always had a "no duhhh" reaction to this verse. It seems obvious that you'll learn all about the inner workings of someone or something by the fruits that they bear. Maybe it calls upon us to not ignore the obvious signs of evil, even when we don't want to see them. I live on the wrong side of the tracks of an affluent town. Both churches I've attended have parking lots full of richy-rich cars. The pastor at our Catholic church once started his sermon with a joke, saying that one time he told his congregation that a car alarm was sounding in the parking lot and could the owner of a black Mercedes go attend to it, and 50 people got up and left. Ha ha. Great segue into a call to alms that day. For me, when I see a parking lot full of shiny expensive cars, and drive up in my own shiny expensive car, yeah take a good hard look at the fruits and make sure you know the tree that they came from. Be careful that you are not distracted by money and wealth, and be careful that those you associate with are not distracted either.

As for organized religion, I think I am with you. We love our current church because they basically leave us alone to worship, and fellowship is invaluable but left up to us to choose our level of participation, without being judged. To me, organization of religion is one of those eye-of-the-needle things. It can be very distracting for human people to organize something that is very personal and spiritual, to lead without exerting power, to collect money without abusing it, and to interpret scripture without judging for personal gain. Really hard to keep their eye on the ball.

Did I totally duck your questions, or did I stay on track? Sometime I do wonder if I justify myself too much, and it starts a cycle of exploration. I go back to basics. What did I do today to honor God? Could I have done more? Yes, always. Will that push me to be better the next day? Tough question.

Manfred

McFate wrote: I'd like to hear a real answer here from a Christian conservative. I'm asking in all sincerity.

How does a Christian reconcile with fiscal conservatism? I understand the social conservative Christian point of view. I don't necessarily agree with it but I understand why some do, sort of, but that is not my question here.

If you read Jesus's words from the sermon on the mount as told by Matthew (the darling saint of liberalism) or John, who seems just a step to the right of Mathew, you should hear Christ warn that between God and wealth, you cannot serve two masters. And that regarding government you should "judge a tree by the fruit that it bears".

Also, there are the later stories of the early church of Saint Peter where the church was a commune where God actually put to death someone who was accused of hoarding wealth.

I understand that these may be a serious challenge to someone's beliefs and politics. I've asked this of my very religious Christian parents and several members of the cleargy and have never received an answer which made logical sense. This issue was largely responsible for me beginning to doubt the beliefs I was brought up with.

I am not an atheist. I do believe there is some force, some being who has an understanding greater than our own who we may join when we leave this life but I have not seen an organized Christian religion which actually urge their congregation to follow "the word of Christ" as presented by the gospels which they claim to follow.

Too much for this thread? Just ignore it. If on the other hand you have a reasoned explanation, please share. I'm listening.

I don't know about judging a government by the fruit it bears. I always took that to be focusing on the individual.

Ok, honest answer from a "Christian conservative" (aka me). I actually believe that you should probably give a lot more than 10% to God. The problem with it when it is administered by the government is that between the crooked politicians and the folks gaming the system when coupled with the bureaucracy involved, those that really need help don't get much. When you use the government and your power to vote to elect an official who is going to take from one to give to the other, that's actually theft. Remember, Robin Hood stole from an oppressive and criminal government to give to the poor, not the other way around. Last point... The government is the only institution that can use deadly force to accomplish its goals. It's one thing to care for and share with others. It's quite a different thing to do so with the threat of prison or death if you refuse to go to prison compelling you to give.

Finally, I'll throw out a little personally held stereotype. I believe that your average American liberal is generous to a fault... With other people's money. Start talking about theirs and it gets a little more interesting.

Well versed manfred, I myself was born and raised in England (the UK for those who forget their roots here) and as such the church I was raised under was that of The Church of England. Now the beliefs are similar to many extents as those of christianity, however it is a belief that, providing you dont cheat on your wife or do bad things with animals etc that you will go to heaven. The money earnt by any individual has no consequence and if you succeed in business then good for you. So who is right and who is wrong? I cannot say, however I do think that maybe if we forget money (the bible is outdated now as its on version 2.1 and microsoft havent released a bug-free version) maybe the book is then better? Afterall we all evolved into pc usng df playing people (they arent in the book) so I say forget the money and follow the basics and you cant go far wrong. (I give lutier lessons on tuesdays)

Btw: although I'm a Christian conservative, don't take me as a wealthy one. I work 100+ hours a week usually, and I'm usually 2 steps from bankruptcy. I'm in the wrong business though. We are paying 2013 prices for things but charging 1990 rates. I'm in an industry that has really big problems right now. Our lovely government has only made the problems 1000% worse with the tons and tons of regulations they have thrown our way in the last 10 years. I'm pretty close to telling the world to go f*** itself and using the one resource that I have that most don't.... Land. The problem with that land is that it is so remote that if I choose to use it, I pretty much have to walk away from everything else in my life, as it is not exactly in a convenient location. Oh well. The stress in my life over money, debt, and obligations is mind numbing. But, I continue to do what I'm good at, and yes, I'm damn good at it. Maybe one day it will pay well enough to be worth it.

But, enough about me.

Jacklpe wrote: Btw: although I'm a Christian conservative, don't take me as a wealthy one. I work 100+ hours a week usually, and I'm usually 2 steps from bankruptcy. I'm in the wrong business though. We are paying 2013 prices for things but charging 1990 rates. I'm in an industry that has really big problems right now. Our lovely government has only made the problems 1000% worse with the tons and tons of regulations they have thrown our way in the last 10 years. I'm pretty close to telling the world to go f*** itself and using the one resource that I have that most don't.... Land. The problem with that land is that it is so remote that if I choose to use it, I pretty much have to walk away from everything else in my life, as it is not exactly in a convenient location. Oh well. The stress in my life over money, debt, and obligations is mind numbing. But, I continue to do what I'm good at, and yes, I'm damn good at it. Maybe one day it will pay well enough to be worth it.

But, enough about me.

What state? and, enough to put a small airstrip on? My retirement goal is to move back west out in the middle of nowhere, being self sufficient. Probably never happen.
Anway's, just curious...

McFate wrote: I'd like to hear a real answer here from a Christian conservative. I'm asking in all sincerity.

How does a Christian reconcile with fiscal conservatism?

Wow, this thread has digressed.

Anyway, as a pastor (edit: and mostly a conservative), I'll explain where I come out on this. I think the place to start is that no political system is perfect. Not one. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. As an American, I think this includes, democracy (including the Constitution and Declaration of Independence) Excellent ideals as they are, they ain't perfect.

This most definitely pertains to the socialism vs conservatism argument. As, when taken to extremes both are horribly wrong. I think the answer is to humbly accept each others strengths and accept your own weaknesses. To try to find a balance between the two philosophies is the answer, but in reality practically impossible. Doesn't mean we quit trying.

Regarding balance, here's an example:
- Love without justice: enables sin and removes all healthy boundaries and creates license (anything goes). (something that democrats and socialist are accused of)

- Justice without love: is abusive manipulation and cares nothing of a person's welfare or why a person may be in the state they are; this creates legalism.(something that republicans and conservatives are accused of)

I see, that God holds these both in perfect tension. But with humanity. No way.

I lived among Native Americans in Northern Ontario for 3 years. The social problems that they face are off the map. For instance studies, have found that 60 to 70% of the people there have experienced sexual abuse (the percentage actually gets higher the further north you go). And the community/reserve that I lived close to, has experienced wave upon wave of youth suicides. One year I was there, out of a community of 2000 people 20-30 took their own lives and the number of unsuccessful attempts would a have been triple that!

Clearly huge issues, and one's that have happened, for a myriad of reasons. No silver bullet for it. But, due to a century old treaty provision these people had all they needed materially. There were given: homes, satellite TV (flat screens, which were brand new then), brand new 4x4 trucks and snowmobiles. Money for food, etc. Everything given, but one thing: purpose. A purpose for life; a reason to live, to get up each day.

I think Jimmy Carter and Habitat for Humanity have struck a good balance though. Their ideal of sweat equity creates accountability, boundaries, and purpose. And it gives the hopeless: hope, a leg up, and way out. Why, more governments don't adopt these ideals is beyond me. Probably, easier to just throw money at problems than to take the time to relate to people, in order to implement this idea. For the record, I voted against Carter, but I was ignorant Yeah I'm giving away my age now...

I think your last question was: why don't Christians do what the Bible says? (or something like that)
That, is also an excellent question and one that, in my mind, can only be explained in the same way as imperfect political systems. In other words, both are the result of living in broken and fallen world.

But, it's not for a lack of being told to listen and obey God's words. Listen to Jesus' half-brother James From the book of his name chapter 1, verse 22-25.

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do."

I guess the answer is: on a regular basis, to humbly ask ourselves, are living by His word? And, ask His forgiveness when we don't. Rejecting the temptation to fatalism, and believing this: that if God says, that we should do something; then it must be achievable and He must be willing to supply strength and ability to do it. All, He needs is a willing heart. The question to the Church and to humanity is: are we willing?

dentinhead wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: Btw: although I'm a Christian conservative, don't take me as a wealthy one. I work 100+ hours a week usually, and I'm usually 2 steps from bankruptcy. I'm in the wrong business though. We are paying 2013 prices for things but charging 1990 rates. I'm in an industry that has really big problems right now. Our lovely government has only made the problems 1000% worse with the tons and tons of regulations they have thrown our way in the last 10 years. I'm pretty close to telling the world to go f*** itself and using the one resource that I have that most don't.... Land. The problem with that land is that it is so remote that if I choose to use it, I pretty much have to walk away from everything else in my life, as it is not exactly in a convenient location. Oh well. The stress in my life over money, debt, and obligations is mind numbing. But, I continue to do what I'm good at, and yes, I'm damn good at it. Maybe one day it will pay well enough to be worth it.

But, enough about me.

What state? and, enough to put a small airstrip on? My retirement goal is to move back west out in the middle of nowhere, being self sufficient. Probably never happen.
Anway's, just curious...

KY and too mountainous for an airstrip...

I'm caught in a dilemma.....I was told to not post but then the person who told me that apologized....then a pilot brought my name up and I have heard some amazing answers that I totally love by some awesome pilots...Onsekone, Colosae, Manfred, #146443 by Jackie and the like

Well Mad & Wig..it would be interesting to know how any of my previous comments could be taken to be among those of the "banjo" players in light of the others. I would hope that its not a point of "ridicule" but actual respect and support..

I want to say that I'm sorry if anything I said that was an offense to some who replied to me...Those who have replied who MIGHT have interpreted what I said wrongly are some of my favorite dogfight players I play with...I will refrain from mentioning specific pilots names out of respect for them...

..I know many here have voiced their thanks of my post Mad, Jack and others for what I said. I personally dont think I said anything that would "cause an offense" in any way..I have seen others who gave some awesome answers spoke even longer than I did and somewhat more direct but they were very good answers and very respectful answers nonetheless..If I have please point it out by PM...but from the answers given to McFate's question made by others I take that it wasnt and there should be no cause of concern on my part....and I want to say that the answers to the question made by McFate were VERY good ...so many of them I support I wont reiterate the "books" I referenced but I will say the very question raised by McFate and other questions are addressed in one of the two books..many of the comments made are addressed specificly in the "books" I references..(they are my some of my favorite books and I think if all of us give them a chance I think many of you would like then too, thats all).

this will be my last public response to this thread unless a pilot desires I respond...I wont initiate a response.

[DD]Big C wrote: Top American exports:

Stupidity
Lead to anyone who doesn't sell oil on the dollar
"Capitalism"
Debt
Sports
Ideas on how to make socialism more expensive/inefficient

Reasons-
No kids these days want to learn. The smart kids get bullied while the dumb kid gets popular because he can dunk. But I'm sure the fact that parents these days suck and the media does more parenting than them has nothing to do with it.

Just to clear things up swop, I didnt say that he bible or Quran was full of hate, just that people take it that way. Almost everything in the Old Testament is in the Quran, just sometimes with different wording: Abraham, noah, Adam, eve

And most of the stuff in the Old Testament while being around 2000 years older than the Q'ran, is around 3000 years younger than the source and culture of the stories and MYTHS.

McFate and Allied, I could give you some insights, but it would probably lead to the creation of a very long and heated thread and the call for the burning of heretics,
If you read the Old and New Testaments side by side, it quickly becomes evident that we are dealing with two very different god concepts. Which one is correct, the short answer is neither. Don't get me wrong, I'm neither atheist nor agnostic, I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person. If you want to continue this discussion I'm more than happy to do so.

doughens wrote: I'm caught in a dilemma.....I was told to not post but then the person who told me that apologized....then a pilot brought my name up and I have heard some amazing answers that I totally love by some awesome pilots...Onsekone, Colosae, Manfred, #146443 by Jackie and the like

Well Mad & Wig..it would be interesting to know how any of my previous comments could be taken to be among those of the "banjo" players in light of the others. I would hope that its not a point of "ridicule" but actual respect and support.

I want to say that I'm sorry if anything I said that was an offense to some who replied to me...Those who have replied who MIGHT have interpreted what I said wrongly are some of my favorite dogfight players I play with...I will refrain from mentioning specific pilots names out of respect for them...

..I know many here have voiced their thanks of my post Mad, Jack and others for what I said. I personally dont think I said anything that would "cause an offense" in any way..I have seen others who gave some awesome answers spoke even longer than I did and somewhat more direct but they were very good answers and very respectful answers nonetheless..If I have please point it out by PM...but from the answers given to McFate's question made by others I take that it wasnt and there should be no cause of concern on my part....and I want to say that the answers to the question made by McFate were VERY good ...so many of them I support I wont reiterate the "books" I referenced but I will say the very question raised by McFate and other questions are addressed in one of the two books..many of the comments made are addressed specificly in the "books" I references..(they are my some of my favorite books and I think if all of us give them a chance I think many of you would like then too, thats all).

this will be my last public response to this thread unless a pilot desires I respond...I wont initiate a response.

NO DOUGHENS, YOU DID NOTHING NOTHING WRONG EXCEPT VOICE YOUR GOOD OPINIONS. THE BANJO REMARK WAS NOT OUT OF RESPECT NOR SUPPORT. YOU SEE YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO VOICE YOUR OPINION IF IT LEANS TO THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE OR THEY WILL BELITTLE YOU AND MAKE YOU FEEL BAD, GOD FORBID YOU MENTION JESUS.

YOU SEE DOUGHENS, THEY CANNOT DEFEND WHAT THEY BELIEVE BECAUSE HISTORY HAS PROVEN IT WILL NOT WORK AND ALSO THE EVIDENCE OF HOW THINGS ARE GOING UNDER THE CURRANT ADMINISTRATION IS SUCH THAT IT CANNOT BE DEFENDED. THEY ARE FORCED TO STEREOTYPE AND BELITTLE. HOWEVER THE LIBERALS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AGAINST OF THAT, GEE I WONDER HOW THAT WORKS.

THEREFORE THE PROBLEM IS NOT YOURS, ITS THEIRS. THATS THE DEFINITION OF LIBERALS.

Flyingmuck wrote: McFate and Allied, I could give you some insights, but it would probably lead to the creation of a very long and heated thread and the call for the burning of heretics,
If you read the Old and New Testaments side by side, it quickly becomes evident that we are dealing with two very different god concepts. Which one is correct, the short answer is neither. Don't get me wrong, I'm neither atheist nor agnostic, I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person. If you want to continue this discussion I'm more than happy to do so.

According to my beliefs, the New Testament is the "new law." Basically, the life of Jesus changed the rules substantially. Hence the contradictions.

Davy Crockett wrote:

doughens wrote: I'm caught in a dilemma.....I was told to not post but then the person who told me that apologized....then a pilot brought my name up and I have heard some amazing answers that I totally love by some awesome pilots...Onsekone, Colosae, Manfred, #146443 by Jackie and the like

Well Mad & Wig..it would be interesting to know how any of my previous comments could be taken to be among those of the "banjo" players in light of the others. I would hope that its not a point of "ridicule" but actual respect and support.

I want to say that I'm sorry if anything I said that was an offense to some who replied to me...Those who have replied who MIGHT have interpreted what I said wrongly are some of my favorite dogfight players I play with...I will refrain from mentioning specific pilots names out of respect for them...

..I know many here have voiced their thanks of my post Mad, Jack and others for what I said. I personally dont think I said anything that would "cause an offense" in any way..I have seen others who gave some awesome answers spoke even longer than I did and somewhat more direct but they were very good answers and very respectful answers nonetheless..If I have please point it out by PM...but from the answers given to McFate's question made by others I take that it wasnt and there should be no cause of concern on my part....and I want to say that the answers to the question made by McFate were VERY good ...so many of them I support I wont reiterate the "books" I referenced but I will say the very question raised by McFate and other questions are addressed in one of the two books..many of the comments made are addressed specificly in the "books" I references..(they are my some of my favorite books and I think if all of us give them a chance I think many of you would like then too, thats all).

this will be my last public response to this thread unless a pilot desires I respond...I wont initiate a response.

NO DOUGHENS, YOU DID NOTHING NOTHING WRONG EXCEPT VOICE YOUR GOOD OPINIONS. THE BANJO REMARK WAS NOT OUT OF RESPECT NOR SUPPORT. YOU SEE YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO VOICE YOUR OPINION IF IT LEANS TO THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE OR THEY WILL BELITTLE YOU AND MAKE YOU FEEL BAD, GOD FORBID YOU MENTION JESUS.

YOU SEE DOUGHENS, THEY CANNOT DEFEND WHAT THEY BELIEVE BECAUSE HISTORY HAS PROVEN IT WILL NOT WORK AND ALSO THE EVIDENCE OF HOW THINGS ARE GOING UNDER THE CURRANT ADMINISTRATION IS SUCH THAT IT CANNOT BE DEFENDED. THEY ARE FORCED TO STEREOTYPE AND BELITTLE. HOWEVER THE LIBERALS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AGAINST OF THAT, GEE I WONDER HOW THAT WORKS.

THEREFORE THE PROBLEM IS NOT YOURS, ITS THEIRS. THATS THE DEFINITION OF LIBERALS.

Davy, you nailed it. The minute a Christian, conservative, and god forbid person from the South opens his mouth, you can expect Deliverance jokes to come flying in. I usually take that as an admission that one has nothing to answer with, so they will effectively just scream "hey, you're a retard" instead and hope that it sticks to something. I've dealt with that type of shit my whole life though, and anymore I'm largely unaffected by it. Now in Wig's case on this thread, I think he wanted to take a quick shot at some of us without getting involved, actually hurting anyone's feelings, etc. I'm sure if he felt compelled, he could write a book about why we are wrong and then it would put the ball back in my court as to whether I wanted to invest the energy in a rebuttal. I probably don't, so I'm kind of glad he chose to just be a smartass (Wig, it takes one to know one ) without making any of us (or at least me) have to actually think about our reply.

Flat and Scruggs or Bill Monroe tonight? Choices choices!!!

we used to watch movies and hear stories of people in the soviet union who would disconnect thier phone so the KGB could not listen in to their conversations. we used to be proud of being a free country and comment that could never happen here! hmmmmm

Thanks to all for the cool headed, well thought out answers. It's great to be able to have a real conversion about all of this without having it fall apart into a bunch of finger pointing and useless emotional ranting.

Ok so im a liberal???? Guys im British and am far from liberal....literal maybe but hey if say we had the whole religion vs science debate it would not get off the ground....anyone here have a grasp on either particle or quantim physics? If so then lets debate....if not then dont try comprehending that which you cannot begin to understand.

Look at this map. The countries in green have universal health care. The others pay as they go. Do you conservatives really think Obama is being cynically retrograde? Don't you think the USA should catch up with the rest of the developed world? Why should the child of a drop out hobo have less rights than the child of a wealthy family?



Look at this graph. It depicts the relative social mobility within some of the wealthiest countries. Is it a coincidence that the USA falls behind almost all the European countries (plus Canada and Australia) where taxes are higher and social policies are more liberal? One of the great notions of the USA is that a hard worker can prosper. Well, there are hard workers in Europe too. There is no difference between the cognative ability of children from poor families and wealthy families, but in Europe (contrary to popular Republican belief) the poor kid has a better chance.



There was an earlier snipe at Brits and Aussies chipping in to this thread. As a citizen of both nations let me answer. Take this as a complement; we are intensely interested in your foreign and domestic policies because they impact on us. When you go to war, so do we. When your banks crash, so do ours. When your nigger president makes a bold, principled step, we notice. We may not be of you, but we understand you better than you understand us.

There will be some short term pain to make Obama's policiy work, and some of you might feel the pinch, but a lot of us out there believe your great nation will be better for it.

Flyingmuck wrote: McFate and Allied, I could give you some insights, but it would probably lead to the creation of a very long and heated thread and the call for the burning of heretics,

What a great way to start any conversation. That’s how I met my wife.

Flyingmuck wrote: If you read the Old and New Testaments side by side, it quickly becomes evident that we are dealing with two very different god concepts. Which one is correct, the short answer is neither.

Could you be somehow more accurate on this? Obviously you have some information that needs to be shared. However, please do not copy – paste or add links to web-pages. I want to hear what you think.

Flyingmuck wrote: I consider myself to be a deeply spiritual person.

Good to see you using your freedom.


It seems you (not you, generally you) have some other meaning to liberal, what I have used to. I have always thought myself as liberal. According to wikipedia...

Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas such as free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free trade, and private property.

What's there not to like? Only thing I have suspicion here is free international trade. That’s because some countries (most) use tax money to support industry and press prices of end product low. Like what I saw in one army clothing catalog: “we can sell these T-shirts extra cheap because American tax-payers have already paid biggest share of them.

Mad, I have heard those words before. I just cannot remember where. StarTreck?

May I ask everyone involved in this thread to behave. Use your freedom to think, believe and speak your mind, but remember that there are real people with real feelings reading this. If this thread evokes some strong emotions, it might be wise to sleep over before writing or just suck it up and deal with it. Or go to some other thread. I’ve done it. Anyway I believe this pot needs to be stirred.

Watch this video, it's all backed up with factual evidence gathered from mainstream news on both side. Obamacare isn't what either side wants to make it seem like.

And Obamacare isn't constitutional because the tenth amendment says "any power not left to the federal government in the constitution is left to the states" health care is never mentioned in the us constitution, so let states make their own if they want it with less problems.

Ronnie, it wasn't a swipe. I just was stating what's obvious to me. You guys always seem to have all sorts of opinions regarding what we should do etc etc etc. In the mean time if I wanted to discuss the politics of your countries, I wouldn't have a clue.

Now I. The mean time, you are blowing your credibility with your n****r president remark. I don't really care what point you are trying to make, or why it is somehow ok for you to say that, 'cause you think someone here is saying it.... I'd be happier if you would take it down.

Onsekone, liberal here is more like communist or at least socialist these days. The only freedom they are interested in is sexual and (their) speech. Beyond that, they are lining up to give the gov't control of every other facet of their lives.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

Ronnie,

I won't quote your whole post (the one with the map, about universal healthcare), but most of it is really well stated. I could be convinced, and almost was convinced years ago... but then administration after administration continued to leave the borders open while economics and politics gave more and more people incentive to cross into the U.S. illegally. No one President could withstand the voter pressure to be kind in this regard, and it culminated with the younger Bush's hilarious and not so publicized idea to unify all of North America into one big economic free for all, and Obama's well known open arms policy. A country just cannot sustain itself with that sort of influx.

Before anyone tosses me into the Racist Pig trough, please understand that I love my fellow human beings, legal or not. I understand the social and economic and political plight of people who wish to get to someplace better than the troubled regions from which they come. I count as my friends, and count ON as my friends, several who are not legally here, and many more who are legal and of similar descent as the masses who are illegal. I get it. But a country and economy can only take so much.

Finally, to my point. A country with borders like a sieve cannot entertain universal health care. The starting burden, that would normally be designable and fathomable, is too much of a hump. Additionally, a country trying to break out of recession is poorly positioned for the required financial kick-start. Companies are not flush; mine is on the verge of breakout, maybe another year to really get traction, but our plans to hire are yet again dampened. The costs are causing us and thousands of small businesses again to STOP hiring at a time when employment needs a serious bump to get the consumer market bsck on its feet. Universal healthcare is the right thing to do? Perhaps, and at least worth a discussion. Now? Worst possible time. Actually, a year ago was the absolute worst, and now is second worst.

Some would argue that the timing is by design, part of the grand plan to finish off the U.S. As a few smart people have pointed out here, the giant is already on its knees. Planned, or just the banking conspiracy simply unravelling now? (Everyone should watch the videos that onsekone posted). Or just part of economic cycles? No, no one of significant votage knows about the banks. I'll go with Davy's conspiratorial leanings, but hopefully with more reason and less emotion. I believe that our man Obama is truly smart, well positioned, and purposeful. He gets to be the great humanitarian AND bring America down from its high horse all with the same moves.

But even if you don't buy the evil objectives and black helicopters, these are the wrong conditions in which to enact this massive social program, regardless of its apparent good intent. All forms of social justice require that the economic engine of tax-generating employment-burgeoning companies be thriving. Even if you hate corporations, despise the small company, and resent your neighbor's home business, these all must be clicking along to fund social security, government positions, schools, handicap assistance, airports, fire, police, roads, and yes, healthcare.

Manfred

P.S.: A side distraction from your otherwise well stated post. I don't understand why you called Obama a n*****. Unless you are tongue in cheek, implying that those who oppose his policies are racist? I hope that is not your point, because you are so wrong, at least in the case with me and the small group of conservatives that I am able to find here in my state. Our best hope for the future is Dr. Ben Carson, a brilliant man who seems to have his neurons all pointed in the right direction. I just wish he would run for president, maybe on an independent ticket to avoid the idiot Republican Party. Oh and he happens to be black. What next, are you going to call me a chink or gook? Who cares what color someone's skin is? Sheesh, the ignorance.

Jacklpe wrote: ...liberal here is more like communist or at least socialist these days. The only freedom they are interested in is sexual and (their) speech. Beyond that, they are lining up to give the gov't control of every other facet of their lives.

But that's not a gross generalization of precisely the type you accuse we communist/socialist liberals of flinging at you brainless, gun-sucking, bible-licking hicks? What a blazing hypocrite. The smug, self-satisfied superciliousness in here is so thick you could cut it with the bayonet on your recreational M-16.

Manfred...seriously? You're buying into Davy's loopy Obama-hate Conspiracy theory? Where does all this plotting of the destruction of Amurica from within happen? Area 51? Sheesh, the ignorance.

. Wigbomb wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: ...liberal here is more like communist or at least socialist these days. The only freedom they are interested in is sexual and (their) speech. Beyond that, they are lining up to give the gov't control of every other facet of their lives.

But that's not a gross generalization of precisely the type you accuse we communist/socialist liberals of flinging at you brainless, gun-sucking, bible-licking hicks? What a blazing hypocrite. The smug, self-satisfied superciliousness in here is so thick you could cut it with the bayonet on your recreational M-16.

Manfred...seriously? You're buying into Davy's loopy Obama-hate Conspiracy theory? Where does all this plotting of the destruction of Amurica from within happen? Area 51? Sheesh, the ignorance.

Lol. Glad you joined us Wig! I'd take a picture of me sucking on a gun, but with the light oily coat, they don't taste too great. And bibles kind of stick to your tounge when you lick them too much. Next time though, can you tell me what you really think about me? That made me laugh... Thank you sir.

. Wigbomb wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: ...liberal here is more like communist or at least socialist these days. The only freedom they are interested in is sexual and (their) speech. Beyond that, they are lining up to give the gov't control of every other facet of their lives.

But that's not a gross generalization of precisely the type you accuse we communist/socialist liberals of flinging at you brainless, gun-sucking, bible-licking hicks? What a blazing hypocrite. The smug, self-satisfied superciliousness in here is so thick you could cut it with the bayonet on your recreational M-16.

Manfred...seriously? You're buying into Davy's loopy Obama-hate Conspiracy theory? Where does all this plotting of the destruction of Amurica from within happen? Area 51? Sheesh, the ignorance.

Generalizing anything is bad... Don't fight fire with fire guys.

When arguing dont use hate. Use facts that you link together to show why you feel the way you do. If you don't have any facts with your opinion, then your opinion is useless and not viable.

. Wigbomb wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: ...liberal here is more like communist or at least socialist these days. The only freedom they are interested in is sexual and (their) speech. Beyond that, they are lining up to give the gov't control of every other facet of their lives.

But that's not a gross generalization of precisely the type you accuse we communist/socialist liberals of flinging at you brainless, gun-sucking, bible-licking hicks? What a blazing hypocrite. The smug, self-satisfied superciliousness in here is so thick you could cut it with the bayonet on your recreational M-16.

Manfred...seriously? You're buying into Davy's loopy Obama-hate Conspiracy theory? Where does all this plotting of the destruction of Amurica from within happen? Area 51? Sheesh, the ignorance.

TALK ABOUT IGNORANCE, HOW DARE YOU, I THINK YOU JUST INSULTED THE MAJORITY OF THE DOGFIGHT COMMUNITY.
WIG YOU SHOW YOUR DEEP IGNORANCE. FOLKS ON THIS THREAD WERE HAVING A DISCUSSION, TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL PARTYS AND THE POLITICIANS WHEREAS YOU TAKE IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL AND SLING CRAP AT PEOPLE PERSONALLY. YOU SIR (and I say that loosely) ARE THE IGNORANT ONE.

OH GEE I THOUGHT LIBERALS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SO TOLERANT OF FOLKKS, YOU ARE ABOUT AS TOLERANT AS A PREGNANT MOOSE BUT YOU ARE WHAT LIBERALS ARE ALL ABOUT. SAY ONE THING BUT DO ANOTHER.

WE BRING UP EVIDENCE AND THEN YOU SLING CRAP. WAY TO GO WIG, YOU MUST BE A REAL SWEETHEART (not)

I will not be insulted by a ignoramus without fighting back. By GOD if want to continue slinging mud then do it. Yes I called you a ignoramus. BRING IT ON WIG. SHOW US YOUR LIBERAL TOLERANCE.