hm seems interesting

Excellent guys thanks for signing up...

Max are you good to compete? The update you have works ok?

Basically for dates and times I would pencil:

1st of Feb - 8 Feb and assuming say 32 players (there could be 26 or so now) we should be able to get all the head to head done by the 8th but the times depend on you. The time will be set by you both so you can attend and I am willing to let the tournament run longer to find workable times so players don't forfeit turns. WHEN I post the pairs you can see what you can do to find an agreeable time I will post some time slots so maybe we can get a few pairs in the same game and get them done quick so we can get closer and closer to the winner

The head to head I am hoping for:

Quick Question. Is It Open Plane? Or Are We All Using Same Tier Planes.

Stay focused. Seems like we are making this thing more difficult by trying too hard to ensure overall fairness. Look at the big picture, you want to determine whose the best. I think it's important that everyone compete on the same level, therefore competing in the same aircraft. What's wrong with the simple starter planes? A good, experienced pilot would have no problem competing in that way.
If your hot your hot. Flying that type of aircraft should be in your favor if you're an experienced pilot and considered hot. I believe if you're one of the best then you shouldn't have any problem competing with the simpler planes. Besides you've got a week to practice in them. So let's see whose the best.
May the best pilot win.
Those are my views.

I totally agree.

This is getting exciting!

Last night I had a one/one dogfight that lasted 20 minutes.

The outcome was:

Me: 1 kill, 1 death, 1 crash
Him:1 kill, 1 death, 3 crashes.

It went on and on, neither could get a second kill.
How would this be scored?

We called it after our arms were numb, rather than get further exhausted. I can't imagine going for 11 in that match up.
Should the contestants fight to the best if their endurance? Maybe we can mutually decide on a time limit at the beginning of a match. I guess if it is truly a tournament, we should just keep at it

Do kills from the chute count?

|111th| tSwopCaml wrote: "...but the most important would be your ability to fight other planes and the points reflect that."

The tournament results will reflect who is best at winning the tournament. If the rules don't work for you don't participate.

The existing game ranking is only a reflection of how many points you have gathered. There are players of great skill who are not in the top 10, 20, 50, 100, etc whose skills (and tactics) are superior to many ranked above them.

Swop, do you honestly believe that you are the 10th best player of all time? I don't mean to pick on you here but come on! Are you better skilled over all than *420* , Skydavis or watupdogfight? I truly believe that you have some great skill but...

If you focus on points you will get lots of points. Just like if you focus on your kill/death ratio you will get a higher kdr. Farming for points requires tactics focused on just that. People who are points mongers will often leave "defend the zep" games and "capture the carrier" missions because there are not enough points awarded to be worth it to them.

You can theoretically gain points by only using minimal skill; by joining games and only staying for ones that are nearly over with the blues set for victory. You can park or crash at the end of your runway and actually do nothing and still get the points for a win. If you were to come into bombing games and only go for sneak bombing runs, crash and burn when you get caught and stay in the game while you go eat lunch, you can still eventually become a MORAF.

If someone wants to max out their KDR they can crash after taking one hit and avoid "deaths" . They can only stay in games against lower ranks.

This tournament will be a better reflection of skill than accumulated points or existing KDRs because it will be under controlled conditions. It still will not be the end all of who is best but the winner will have earned it.

u know id like to do this, buut id be one the first to be downed. I suck anymore

McFate wrote: This is getting exciting!

Last night I had a one/one dogfight that lasted 20 minutes.

The outcome was:

Me: 1 kill, 1 death, 1 crash
Him:1 kill, 1 death, 3 crashes.

It went on and on, neither could get a second kill.
How would this be scored?

We called it after our arms were numb, rather than get further exhausted. I can't imagine going for 11 in that match up.
Should the contestants fight to the best if their endurance? Maybe we can mutually decide on a time limit at the beginning of a match. I guess if it is truly a tournament, we should just keep at it

Do kills from the chute count?

I think the tie breaker in that would be the crashes since you have to avoid crashing into your opponent and the ground, which does take skill in the situational awareness department.

tKestrel wrote: u know id like to do this, buut id be one the first to be downed. I suck anymore

Hey kes, how about some target practice? You be the target, I'll do the practice

whiplash im in

mach2don wrote: Stay focused. Seems like we are making this thing more difficult by trying too hard to ensure overall fairness. Look at the big picture, you want to determine whose the best. I think it's important that everyone compete on the same level, therefore competing in the same aircraft. What's wrong with the simple starter planes? A good, experienced pilot would have no problem competing in that way.
If your hot your hot. Flying that type of aircraft should be in your favor if you're an experienced pilot and considered hot. I believe if you're one of the best then you shouldn't have any problem competing with the simpler planes. Besides you've got a week to practice in them. So let's see whose the best.
May the best pilot win.
Those are my views.

Are you competing? If not please make another thread and post your comments there until after the competition is over then I will discuss anything you like. I will however address this as this seems to be a point of concern. I have already stated reasons before but things have changed a bit and this is where I stand on this issue.

Pros
- Mostly level field: I say only mostly level because anyone who is running a second account has an advantage since they would have been flying these planes most recently. Lower level players also have an advantage for the same reason.
(ADV: Puppet account creators and new players)

- Everyone has the plane

Cons
- Lack of familiarity with planes handling: 95% of the players will be slightly 'off' since there are many fine points about the controls...
...How tight is the loop it can pull
...How much do you need to tilt to get just a tiny bit of movement
...How can I tell from the surroundings if I have the plane going fast enough
These are not things we would know and it's what I use to fight. If this is the way the tournament is made we, the long time players group, cannot bring the best game we have we bring the best we can come up with period since our best game can only be if we flew the plane we fly all the time.
(DISADV: Long Time Players)

If we choose the method I have already outlined it ensures equal play since same aircraft must be used. How hard is that? Give me one issue with that solution? Then when those of us who use the top planes fight we can use them like we always do.

As I said to Zebra if you want a starter plane competition go ahead I want the best play not something that handicaps the players who are most likely to win.

Trey43 wrote: Quick Question. Is It Open Plane? Or Are We All Using Same Tier Planes.

You must use the same plane as your opponent. You agree at the same time as selecting the time you fight.

tKestrel wrote: u know id like to do this, buut id be one the first to be downed. I suck anymore

Aww cmon Kes even if you were and I know you won't you will have more fun then not playing at all! That I know...then you can help me organize and referee? Please....

[WS]HD wrote:

McFate wrote: This is getting exciting!

Last night I had a one/one dogfight that lasted 20 minutes.

The outcome was:

Me: 1 kill, 1 death, 1 crash
Him:1 kill, 1 death, 3 crashes.

It went on and on, neither could get a second kill.
How would this be scored?

We called it after our arms were numb, rather than get further exhausted. I can't imagine going for 11 in that match up.
Should the contestants fight to the best if their endurance? Maybe we can mutually decide on a time limit at the beginning of a match. I guess if it is truly a tournament, we should just keep at it

Do kills from the chute count?

I think the tie breaker in that would be the crashes since you have to avoid crashing into your opponent and the ground, which does take skill in the situational awareness department.

I guess I never thought about twisting forever. So the kills are by the scoreboard so I guess you could make them in tank if you wanted. You wont be allowed near the spawn points so if you can kill everyone from tank even go ahead first to score an 11 in the kills column with only killing their opponent wins that fight. I would say an hour max for all fights in the rounds up to semi final with the winner if max time is reached is the one with the best score. In McFate's case he would have won since he would have 1-2 and opponent would have been 1-4. For the semi finals and up the time limit will be 2 hours and 30 mins sudden death if there is a tie in number of kills. Then if still a tie we use the best kdr for that game and if still tied we use the best record in the whole tournament.

The True Alpha wrote: whiplash im in

Excellent I thought I saw you post earlier, I have you on the list no worries.

just want a bit of clarification. I've always considered an enemy crashing in a dogfight to be a victory. Is that the case? May not show up as a kill, but I sure as heck won that round. I ask because Mcfate brought up the point of crashing yourself if you've been hit once to avoid death, or giving the enemy a point in the kill column.

Also, how will the matchups be determined. Random? or through seeding?

Thanks.

SnidelyWhiplash wrote:

tKestrel wrote: u know id like to do this, buut id be one the first to be downed. I suck anymore

Aww cmon Kes even if you were and I know you won't you will have more fun then not playing at all! That I know...then you can help me organize and referee? Please....

Since ur begging......


I'll try buddy. I have put my wings up but i guess i can come out of retirement to help ya out.

Cricket wrote: just want a bit of clarification. I've always considered an enemy crashing in a dogfight to be a victory. Is that the case? May not show up as a kill, but I sure as heck won that round. I ask because Mcfate brought up the point of crashing yourself if you've been hit once to avoid death, or giving the enemy a point in the kill column.

Also, how will the matchups be determined. Random? or through seeding?

Thanks.

I also consider crashing to be a victory so maybe that's a better scoring system. Until the player make his opponent or the opponent themselves cause 11 deaths. And the matchups will be random grouped by time zone.

tKestrel wrote:

SnidelyWhiplash wrote:

tKestrel wrote: u know id like to do this, buut id be one the first to be downed. I suck anymore

Aww cmon Kes even if you were and I know you won't you will have more fun then not playing at all! That I know...then you can help me organize and referee? Please....

Since ur begging......


I'll try buddy. I have put my wings up but i guess i can come out of retirement to help ya out.

NICE!!! YAY thanks man!

Gizmo541 wrote: There's some very good players here whip,think I'm going to be a bit embarrassed after this is over,my planes too slow for dogfighting,

Who cares its all for fun anyway! I'm not winning this either so at least we can share the fun.

McFate....this tournament pretty much focuses solely on KDR and not on all of the many aspects of the game....Look at many of the pilots that are high ranking....look at the number of bombed hangars....many of the pilots that some in dogfight think are good dont have as many hangars bombed....how are they in the killing of zepplin?.....How are they in supporting the specific mission in the game to win the game?....

The fact remains kdr is not the end all to be all....This tournament really just determines how well a guy is plane to plane and it doesnt focus on all of the many other abilities in dogfight like tank ability, kill of zep ability, bomb ability, capture ability, etc. etc.

McFate...you kinda proved my point.....kill/death ratio is not the sole determinate of dogfight ability in dogfight in determining who is better in the game of dogfight....

I dont do many of those things that you suggest to "improve kdr"....I play the capture carrier games and defend the zep games....

The fact remains this tournament does not determine overal dogfight ability by neglecting to include in focus ALL of the many aspects of dogfight ability......Again many of these KDR pilots dont have the level of bombed hangars as others.....

....Whip and I, before the the KDR got overly factored into the game, came up with a wonderful way to do the tournament that focuses more on the overal ability than just plane to plane ability.....that was really the point....I also never said that I was better than this player or that player nor did I imply that...you actually brought that up.....Im only saying that if we as Dogfight players want to determine who is good at this game we need to focus on all of the many many other aspects in the game than solely KDR or plane to plane ability.....thats all I was trying to say...

" by joining games and only staying for ones that are nearly over with the blues set for victory. You can park or crash at the end of your runway and actually do nothing and still get the points for a win. If you were to come into bombing games and only go for sneak bombing runs, crash and burn when you get caught and stay in the game while you go eat lunch, you can still eventually become a MORAF."

I do none of these things

Swop we have all seen your objections to the way Whip is setting this up. Since you are not playing why not start your own thread for arguing your point. This is not the place for you to continually post your objections.

Well then why then after I was done McFate posted his objections to my objections?....If you read I actually AGREED with Whip on what him and I discussed early on in this thread until it got changed....

Somehow I just knew you would not take a suggestion.

I asked a legitimate and fair question....a question is not voicing an objection...

But you are not going to compete so why try to make your point here? Over and over you argue the same thing. Why not organize your own tournament, set it up your way, and be happy. And remember, no matter your point, I don't think you will get anyone to throw up their hands and say, "Eureka! Swop is right!"

I followed ur suggestion. I had originally stopped commenting until mcfate made his comments. I then asked a question without an objection. I think we all agree that ability in dogfight includes bombing zep tank capture etc. Thats not stating an objection but stating what all the missions in dogfight are. Im only suggesting those aspects and abilities be included.

I can't do screen shots, but I am in. My schedule is hectic, so I may not be able to make specific time frame events.

To Swop-

I do not buy your objections for this reason. You are approaching this idea from a mission win scenario, which is not how we play the game. Game etiquette prohibits a mission winning mindset. As an example, in a BTB game a mission win focus would flow as follows. Half the team would immediately drop bombs and provide escort to the other half of bombers. Once at the enemy base, they would camp and spawn kill to allow the bombers to reload and return. Tanks would be viewed as principle assets since they can destroy 8 hangars in the same time a plane can hit 2 (assuming the one bomb take out 2 hangars). IN a CTC game, spawn killing and air supremacy would be a primary focus at the red base.

We do not play the game this way. We value honor, sportsmanship, and skill. The ability to deliver a bomb, fire on the zep, or anything else depends on your ability to stay alive in the combat zone. Your ability to stay alive is a mix of situational awareness, long shooting, and dogfighting. I think KDR is a superb measure IF people are following the etiquette and not bomb dropping, spawn killing, or other nefarious acts. Just my $.02. God knows it don't buy much.