The thing that cracks me up the most about this discussion? Shortly after I started the game, one of you people that have been playing for a very long time (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!) gave me a piece of advice on how to hit a plane, since I asked and was obviously having a problem. "Aim above the wings" he said, and insinuated that the bullets had a realistic trajectory. I think I spent at least a week of not hitting anything and getting my butt blown out of the sky!

Makes me laugh now, but it was so sad back then.

Yeah, Zuperman, basically what we all want is for you to make it more realistic when it means we can shoot down more reds, and less realistic if it means we are going to get hit more often

I was promised guided bullets and an uparmored aircraft with a faster speed, tighter turn radius, and higher ceiling. Really this is just an equalizer for me...

ZebraUp wrote: Taken from the Boelcke Dicta (via Wikipedia):

3. Open fire only at close range, and then only when the opponent is squarely in your sights.

A common rookie's urge was to start blasting away upon sighting his first enemy machine. Shots taken at ranges of 1000 m (3280 ft) stood little chance of hitting their mark. The rattle of machine gun fire would alert the intended target and gave them time to react.

The machine guns available for aircraft during the First World War were not highly accurate at longer ranges. Add to that the difficulty of aiming from a moving, bouncing gun platform at a fast moving target and it is a marvel that anyone ever hit anything. Boelcke preferred to fly to within 100 m (330 ft) or less before firing, to ensure hitting what he aimed at with his opening burst. Once the rattle of his guns was heard, the advantage of surprise was gone, so it was best to make that first shot most effective.

Another aspect of making each shot count was the limited supply of ammunition carried in World War I aircraft — usually only a few hundred rounds. This could amount to less than 60 seconds of sustained fire. Reloading in the air varied from dangerous to impossible. Spraying the sky with lead in hopes of hitting something, eventually, was not an option. Shots had to be chosen carefully. Early in the war, when a sense of chivalry still held sway, some men allowed their opponents to depart if they were out of ammunition or had jammed guns. Total war did not allow such courtesies to last for long.

I think ammo has always been a problem, the A-10 could only carry a minute's woth of 30mm, much like the DVII had a 500 round belt for each Spandau. Again, I think heating the guns and jamming them when hot is more realistic than taking away from the actual ballistics. Let's put it this way, if the 7.92 is curved to realism, there will be plenty of people that suddenly can't hit the broadside of a barn, but there will be a few that have ballistic calculators in their DNA and will be lethal at range. Why make the range less than actual, why not let the actual performance of the rounds determine the effective range for each shooter? Ammo capacity is close now to realistic, give or take, it's the missions that are shorter and involve immediate prospects of combat.

I keep thinking of the statistics that more pilots were killed in training than in combat, and in combat their first month than the rest of the war. Most of these pilots were only nominally such, and couldn't shoot. I also remember watching WWII gunnery videos where they had a shotgun mounted in a gun cradle, driving down a road shooting clays to train gunners, moving platform, moving target, moving gun. Taking the gun and fixing it to the plane takes away one of the movement factors, whereas I've shot off a vehicle that I wasn't steering, moving in an unkown direction (to me) against a target moving likewise. The fixed guns shooting through the prop was what made these planes suddenly much more lethal and started the arms race.

I've been in plenty of slow fixed wing aircraft and rotor wing aircraft and unless there was a storm they were relatively stable gun platforms. A Piper Cub is only slightly slower than a Fokker Dr. I, and with much less surface area on the wings, but I can hold it steady enough at speed to point the prop at a certain mark and hold it for a good while. Certainly more stable than a humvee bouncing through the desert or down the tank tables.

Of course the guns are more lethal closer, because the cone of fire does not extend beyond the target. That doesn't mean they are less lethal at range, they just have to be aimed with skill, same as a modern battle rifle. Add wind drag and buffeting, like the old Flying Corp, and it doesn't really throw your aim much.

I'm still working on long range shooting and would not like losing those skills at this point

For us older more.experienced pilots realism for.bullets wouldnt be much of a.problem even.for the long shots . But noobs coming into the game would have no clue even at close range. But i have noticed most of the guys that want change are close in tight turning dog fighters . That dont like being shot from a.distance . Just leave it alone shooting planes from a distance isnt a hard thing to do if you take the time to figure it out . Now.someone said they can shoot over iron sights my father qualified as sharpshooter and taught me how to shoot i have a unique understanding of ballistic trajectory . I can still hit a penny at 100 yards with my Remington 22 bolt action over iron sights

[*M]ONSTER CANNON wrote: I'm still working on long range shooting and would not like losing those skills at this point

Still working on it? Just how damn good do you plan on getting? You want to be able to hit the planes that haven't spawned in yet, because those are the only ones that are safe from you now.

I say no to the change.Its another sway in pc favour.since you put it back up to speed the whirly birds are out.And no you can't catch them

Now that we have team chat, get rid of the radar and name above the plane. Just the plane is all one needs to see.

Another idea is to add a % till death on each plane when you hit it. So instead of just a line that says "you hit X", have it say, "you hit X 80%"

That's the way it use to be for the game Fighter Ace.

Any changes that introduces new challenges are good.
They stop the players who have been around for a long time from getting bored and stop paying their subs.
I say do it.

Longrifle wrote:

[*M]ONSTER CANNON wrote: I'm still working on long range shooting and would not like losing those skills at this point

Still working on it? Just how damn good do you plan on getting? You want to be able to hit the planes that haven't spawned in yet, because those are the only ones that are safe from you now.

I still have a long way to go

Should Zup decide to make the ballistics more realistic, may I suggest that he also give the snipers and newcomers other options in dealing with th T&B crowd i.e. Energy fightning or boom and zoom tactics. The way it is, the game, bar long-range shooting, is a strictly turn and burn affair, as per the game's name.

Either we lump planes of the same level/timeline in a match or give some of them, like the SPAD13, SE5, Albatross DVA or similar aircraft the ability to be able to (with sufficient energy) dictate the pace of the fight. It should balance things out with the bonafide dogfighters IMHO...

Just my added two cents..

THERE IS MUCH MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDED BEFORE THIS!!! like some type of heavy bombers tail gunners and i also think we should have bigger games maybe 5on5 or possibly 6on6 and we should add the qroking anti air guns

Final comment on this topic from me... And I mean no disrespect to anyone here...

But to those of you wanting this changed claiming to want more realistic features...is it a change that suits your playing style better? Honestly, there's one respected pilot on here that enters bombing missions and lets you know right away that he hates bombing missions...yet he's a remarkable turn fighter...just seems to me that some players that are weaker at one aspect of a game want it gone rather than taking the time to get good at it.

My point is this: is this a change to be made because you are no good at long range killing or do you really really want realism? Because there are a few other unrealistic features to pick on here... How about tanks magically appearing out of nowhere once you successfully parachute to the earth? That's not realistic but nobody picks at that one...unlimited re spawns until the game is over...again you die once in real life...

If you're going to advocate change for more realistic features then go all the way, picking and choosing what suits you isn't helping the game...it's helping yourself in my opinion...again, no disrespect intended.

And honestly, there have been so many changes and growing pains the last few months anyways...why don't we all give it some time and soak it in? Really, it's pretty wicked right now!

[M]Comet wrote: Final comment on this topic from me... And I mean no disrespect to anyone here...

But to those of you wanting this changed claiming to want more realistic features...is it a change that suits your playing style better? Honestly, there's one respected pilot on here that enters bombing missions and lets you know right away that he hates bombing missions...yet he's a remarkable turn fighter...just seems to me that some players that are weaker at one aspect of a game want it gone rather than taking the time to get good at it.

My point is this: is this a change to be made because you are no good at long range killing or do you really really want realism? Because there are a few other unrealistic features to pick on here... How about tanks magically appearing out of nowhere once you successfully parachute to the earth? That's not realistic but nobody picks at that one...unlimited re spawns until the game is over...again you die once in real life...

If you're going to advocate change for more realistic features then go all the way, picking and choosing what suits you isn't helping the game...it's helping yourself in my opinion...again, no disrespect intended.

And honestly, there have been so many changes and growing pains the last few months anyways...why don't we all give it some time and soak it in? Really, it's pretty wicked right now!

I don't want too much...just the ability to cloak and have super shooting powers!

I want adamantium skin on my plane. Is that REALLY too much to ask for?

Right Comet, point taken,

But any move toward more realism in a right move for me.
This just being one of them.

Radar, ww2 carriers, flag game although it being fun, tank driving pilots shooting down planes, parachutes for pilots ( they were lucky if they had seatbelts) etc......all up for extinction, if the long term vision for Dogfight is 'Dogfight Elite'.

......and laserbeam bullets.

Now we're on a roll anyway:

Deminished performance of an airplane after being hit. Hard to fly full speed with a shredded wing or a leaking radiator.
Overheating guns.....gun jammed....Would love some game changers, if they are in my favour. Lol. (O yes,....ad a ban on lol's)

Rudolf Rednose wrote: Right Comet, point taken,

But any move toward more realism in a right move for me.
This just being one of them.

Radar, ww2 carriers, flag game although it being fun, tank driving pilots shooting down planes, parachutes for pilots ( they were lucky if they had seatbelts) etc......all up for extinction, if the long term vision for Dogfight is 'Dogfight Elite'.

......and laserbeam bullets.

Now we're on a roll anyway:

Deminished performance of an airplane after being hit. Hard to fly full speed with a shredded wing or a leaking radiator.
Overheating guns.....gun jammed....Would love some game changers, if they are in my favour. Lol. (O yes,....ad a ban on lol's)

Lol.

yeah it isn't acceptable
s

Yes, do it! Be true to your school!

ok guys, everyone vote here
dogfightplay.com/index.php/forum/3-feedb...0969-kill-range-poll

Looks like the twist and turn fighter want realistic bullets. Taylor the game for them. During ww1 you didn't see figher bombers pulling all.kinds of stunts they could.move slowly just like our planes move now the head on guys cant get what we ask for why should the turn fighters get what they want. Eventually there wont be bombing missions it will just be all dog fighting. And thats is just what the turn fighters want

Realism is not part of this game. Carriers? Not an issue in WW1. Night fighting? Nope all navigation was by sight. No lights in war zone. Bullet range is limited to range of sight. If you cant shoot as far as you can see the plane save your ammo. The game has changed radically in just a very short time, and i am not convinced it is all for the better. I would like to see the game return to the one i first played 2+ years ago. And not have skills developed over time and practice erased just because not everyone can do it.

Change this, don't like that, why not add some heat seeking missiles that twist and turn and has it's own mini gun. Why don't we all demand so much Un realistic realism from this game, that each update will have the inevitable glitch upon glitch. Geez man no satisfying this crowd, pitchforks and torches.

I say keep it the same

If anything I would go back to the way it was when I first spawned into the game 2 years ago, It was the best, it's still the best game but I think it was better in the beginning. Maybe simple is better.

Whatever the case may be its still the best game out there.

Yep go ahead and change it see how many will paying guys will leave and how many just wont buy it .all i see i some want the advantage because they just haven taken the time to learn to shoot from long range and it easy as hell once you figure it twisting guys have the advantages in close in turn fighting. So take away the only advantage the head on guys have. Just who needs the waambulance here. You dont like head on fighting stay the hell out of bombing missions there are now three games designed for twisting and turning style go fly them all they want is a super kdr when your deaths have no meaning in your ranking so.they get into bombing games knowing they can out turn others and if they get in close they get the kill.

Yo estoy de acuerdo,que sea mas realista,y dotar al tanque de ametralladora.se me da muy bien la cabeza pero no veo normal antes de apenas apuntar estar muerto o al reves.ademas asi en una pelea de perros seria mas normal parece que estes en el espacio.por adelante cuanto mas real mejor.pensemos que le estamos haciendo un homenaje a todos aquellos buenos pilotos que murieron en la lucha.hagamos del juego algo real,y poco a poco incorporando cosas que la hagan mejor.ademas si no funciona se puede quitar,o volver a lo mismo.creo que se tiene que hacer,es inaudito que un paraidista te de desle la otra parte del mapa ademas los motores deberian fallar y perder el carburante,tener que regresar,cin el tiempo ampliar el mapa y poner otras bases en los extremos,asi todos tendriamos unas conduciones parecidas y primaria la habilidad pero tambien otros muchos factores.el.clima,la distancia,las bases,el combustible,seria muy interesante sin duda y haria un juego mas genial aún.el tanque tendria mas posibilidades de avanzar.cuantas veces llegan a base?tambien al llegar al aeropuerto,todos los que despegan tendrian mas opciones sin duda.seria mas parecido a lo que fue entonces seriamos testigos y a la vez tambien protagonistas que mas se puede pedir?yo sin duda mas realista sí

I agree, it is more realistic, and give the tank ametralladora.se gives me great head but I see little point average before being dead or reves.ademas so in a serious fight seems most normal dogs As you are in the later more real espacio.por mejor.pensemos we are doing a tribute to all those good drivers who died in the lucha.hagamos of something real game, and gradually incorporating things that make mejor.ademas otherwise works can be removed, or re mismo.creo what you have to do is unheard of for a paraidista Desle you from the other side of the map besides the engines should fail and lose fuel, having to return, extend the time cin map and put other bases at the ends, so all we would have a similar conduciones and primary skill but also many factores.el.clima, distance, bases, fuel, certainly would be very interesting and would make a great game even more .the tank would have more chances of avanzar.cuantas sometimes reach base? also at the airport, all taking off would have more options without duda.seria closest thing to what was then we would witness and simultaneously also protagonists who else can ask for? I definitely yes more realistic

Keep it the same I say....!!!!!

baron rojo wrote: I agree, it is more realistic, and give the tank ametralladora.se gives me great head but I see little point average before being dead or reves.ademas so in a serious fight seems most normal dogs As you are in the later more real espacio.por mejor.pensemos we are doing a tribute to all those good drivers who died in the lucha.hagamos of something real game, and gradually incorporating things that make mejor.ademas otherwise works can be removed, or re mismo.creo what you have to do is unheard of for a paraidista Desle you from the other side of the map besides the engines should fail and lose fuel, having to return, extend the time cin map and put other bases at the ends, so all we would have a similar conduciones and primary skill but also many factores.el.clima, distance, bases, fuel, certainly would be very interesting and would make a great game even more .the tank would have more chances of avanzar.cuantas sometimes reach base? also at the airport, all taking off would have more options without duda.seria closest thing to what was then we would witness and simultaneously also protagonists who else can ask for? I definitely yes more realistic

Huh? Appears some receive extra benefits