[DD]Big C wrote: The first part I will address is that I in no way support or admire the NRA. I also legally own and use firearms and therefore recognize their correct use and abilities.

Since the restrictions on firearms in England and Australia, crime has risen.

At the end of the day, the US is a very different place than any other country, as with any country and its cultures, people, and government. I will point out that most firearms deaths in the US are due to suicide, according to the FBI.

Also, the 31000 gun incidents are not murders, they are guns used in crime/self defense.

However, at the end of the day, the right to firearms isnt for pseudo masculinity or hunting; it is so the people can defend themselves, be it against government or eachother. And, with most violent death in the 20th century being democide, this is not a right that at this point is irrelevant.

I hate violence as much as you do Biggs, however, I see the solution as not allowing people to become victims, but letting them be as equipped as the criminals that will have firearms in any condition of laws.

Not so in Australia, the murder rate is at its lowest ever. Been on the decline since the 70s (peaked in the 20s or 30s ). There isn't any rise in crime associated Sitha reduction in gun ownership or use. I'm a shooter but owning a gun for self defence shouldn't be a valid reason in any first world country.

So what is an acceptable amount of people killed by guns?

Dear Ronnie and Pedrinho,
As much as I respect and enjoy your posts (especially yours, Ronnie), I am slightly puzzled as to why you two insist on posting on this thread.
The topic is "who likes guns?" For you, the answer is obviously "no", so I fail to understand why you don't leave it at that.
Now, instead of being a cool thread where people post pictures of their hobbies, this has turned into just the kind of morality debate I had hoped we would all be man enough to avoid. But now, this has become a battle of useless statistics. Frankly, it doesn't matter if you two ARE correct: for the present, guns ARE legal in many countries, and this is a place for like-minded people to congregate.
I was hoping not to have to do this, but I must kindly request, and with no hard feelings, that you cease to post on this particular thread, unless you have something to share related to the intended topic, which you've made very clear you don't.

Respectfully,
Mac

G.I. I'm not going anywhere. The title of this public thread is "Who likes guns?" That's a very definitive question. A lot of people do, a lot of people don't. I didn't realise that your referendum only permitted yes votes.

As a matter of fact, I do like firearms. They are part of my profession. I love their precision and ingenious designs. I also love their history. A lot of older firearms are almost works of art in my mind. Marksmanship is difficult to master, but very satisfying when you get it right. Every weapon is different in power, action and balance, but the principles of marksmanship remain the same. A nice sunny afternoon firing prone at 2-300m, when your doing well, can be almost meditative. On the other hand, Instinctive, close quarter firing with 270 degree arcs looks fun, but is actually very demanding, physically and mentally.

What I don't like is poorly controlled gun ownership. Anyone who thinks the USA's gun laws are adequate and appropriate for the 21st Century in deluded. Anyone who thinks that the Congress is about to turn on its own people is completely mad.

What is an acceptable amount of people killed by anything?

And I was referencing overall crime, not simply murders hammer.

Many examples of guns being used in self defense, videos like this are abundant on youtube if you look for them.

(Although I find the melodramatic music extreme, the intention is true)


The problem in america is not lack of strict gun laws. The strictest cities on guns in America, Chicago, DC, Detroit, all have some of the highest murder rates in the country and world, yet in Chicago it is illegal to own a handgun.

And to say congress doesn't represent the people is a vast understatement. Only 23% of people approves of congresses actions, and the blatant violations of the constitution by congress shows their disrespect for the people and their rights.

Should anyone be allowed to own an automatic firearm?

I am happy that I live in a country where the police and the army have the sole right to use deadly force, and it is hard to get a licence for any kind of gun.

I know we europeans don't quite get the american way of life, and the people not wanting the federal government to interfere in their life as they do in Europe.
If I would live in a country where you can not count on the police to secure a reasonable degree of safety, I might think differently about the American gun-laws.
But an unstable person having the right to own a military type of automatic rifle? I think that should worry anybody with a bit of common sence.
Why don't they let the local officials hand out permits for such weapons, and make sure that those officials are held accountable, in case that person uses it unwisely.

I wonder how many people will get a licence......

Just a thought.

[DD]Big C wrote:
Many examples of guns being used in self defense, videos like this are abundant on youtube if you look for them.

(Although I find the melodramatic music extreme, the intention is true)

Videos of talking cats doing Riverdance are abundant on youtube, if you look for them. (I find the melodramatic choreography extreme, but the intention of the cats is true.)

I enjoyed the comment about there being little distinction between guns in a super-realistic game like Dogfight and actual firearms in the actual world. Great point, we need tougher restrictions on biplanes. Nice to see Jack Thompson getting into the forum mix.

Rudolf Rednose wrote: Should anyone be allowed to own an automatic firearm?

I am happy that I live in a country where the police and the army have the sole right to use deadly force, and it is hard to get a licence for any kind of gun.

I know we europeans don't quite get the american way of life, and the people not wanting the federal government to interfere in their life as they do in Europe.
If I would live in a country where you can not count on the police to secure a reasonable degree of safety, I might think differently about the American gun-laws.
But an unstable person having the right to own a military type of automatic rifle? I think that should worry anybody with a bit of common sence.
Why don't they let the local officials hand out permits for such weapons, and make sure that those officials are held accountable, in case that person uses it unwisely.

I wonder how many people will get a licence......

Just a thought.

In order to own a "military type automatic rifle" in the US, it does require a special permit and much more paperwork. They were outlawed in 89 I believe.

What you are probably referring to is the media coined "assault rifle," usually applied to a low caliber, semiautomatic rifle.

But yes, in America the average police response is about 15 minutes, and by that time the crime is most times long over, and all the police can do is find the criminal; leaving It to the citizens to actually stop the crime.

And the reason the people don't trust the government is because they have no reason to, from the patriot act, to Guantanamo bay, to immoral and illegal wars, and the NSA (which has been responsible for international spyin also).

I am speaking on behalf of 0.0000001% of Great Britain when I say, this explains all, once and for all.



That is all!

Edit:- after Goldie Looking chain released this 'classic', many of the Irish, English and the other place (Scotland) wanted to use such weapons against the Welsh.

No offence Scooby, KTtheo, Chocks Away and all others possibly offended by my welsh and 'other place' comments...

VOTE YES FOR INDEPENDENCE OF SCOTLAND

Wigbomb wrote:

[DD]Big C wrote:
Many examples of guns being used in self defense, videos like this are abundant on youtube if you look for them.

(Although I find the melodramatic music extreme, the intention is true)

Videos of talking cats doing Riverdance are abundant on youtube, if you look for them. (I find the melodramatic choreography extreme, but the intention of the cats is true.)

I enjoyed the comment about there being little distinction between guns in a super-realistic game like Dogfight and actual firearms in the actual world. Great point, we need tougher restrictions on biplanes. Nice to see Jack Thompson getting into the forum mix.

Good to see I wouldn't have the most unintelligible point. The fake hair guy takes the cake.

[LB] Pedrinho wrote: And here we go again...

Biggs, don't bother losing your precious time and effort arguing with these freaks. And good luck on your mission.

I beg your pardon sir, but who are you referring to by using the word 'freaks'?

Onsekone
Excellent my friend, sounds like your doing everything rite and you have a great and strong family ties. I'm probably a bit older but did the same thing raising my two daughters and it works. Keep it up.

Good luck, mach2

Ronnie Biggs wrote: Idunno, I'm not sure what you just said, but it's almost poetic. If you're hitting on me, I think it's working.

It was a clean well placed shot. He was slamming you, you know a cut.. DA???

I guess you might say hitting, but not on you, at you.

Hey Mach2,
I know exactly what Idunno's post was suppose to be, but thanks for the explanation anyway. While you were at it, though, did you notice that this thread had gone quiet since the news of the tragic events in California? I think all of us, on both sides of the fence, felt it would be a good idea to pipe down for a while. What do you think?

California case needs to be talked but now might not be the time. I never liked dancing on graves, which some senators are already doing. I just say that I wish Elliot Rodgers parents had been there more instead of just throwing in all the cash that poor kid ever wanted. And they should have teached him what the word "no" means.

But California aside. Ronnie, you think there is a lot of wrong on gun laws of US. What kind of gun legislation you think fits best on civilized country? Is there somewhere a country where that legislation exist?

mach2 wrote: I beg your pardon sir, but who are you referring to by using the word 'freaks'?

I know I am probably going to disappoint some real friends I have here by doing this, but here it goes:

I consider a freak every parent that puts a gun on his kid's hands.

Sorry, guys, but that's what I think, and he asked. I have this malfuncion: I completely lack the capability of being silent when someone ask me what I think about some sort of subjects.

I am REALLY sorry, folks. That's me. Real me, as always. The drama queen. The stupid silly not-an-elf. Yeah, I am judging. But I am saying it outloud, not from behind velvet courtains. I just can NOT read this kind of question and pretend not reading it - I need to answer it. So, if one of you, my real friends, become upset with me by reading this, I am really sorry. Hope you forgive my judgement.

I need my meds. Really.

[LB] Pedrinho wrote: I consider a freak every parent that puts a gun on his kid's hands.

So the rest of you can breathe a sigh of relief.

I'm a hothead myself and it has teached me to read trough and edit/remove posts before sending them. It works most of the time.

I consider all the divergent views welcome but lets not forget good manners. I might find some things shocking that people on other side of the world do but I also know they have whole different social, cultural and historical background as I do. I've nothing against debate but lets target our saying to opinions instead of people behind them.

Thanks for your polite and civilized answer, Onsekone.
As I said, I am really sorry if I shocked some friends and good men on this forum.
I know everbody has the right to raise their kids the way they think is more appropriated.

But think about this for a minute: I admit that writing what I wrote may sound shocking and insulting for many people, and I should instead be "good manner", and avoid expressing it, to do no harm to others... But try to be on the other side of this fence: seeing a parent showing a photograph of his own daughter wearing a gun can be as shocking and as insulting as that - if not MORE!
So, lets think about what we ALL are doing here, please.

G.I. Mac McMelkor wrote: I'm not particularly fond of hunting, but I shoot skeet and some targets occasionally... So who here likes guns? What kinda guns? Do you hunt, or just shoot for fun?

Ronnie Biggs wrote:
What I don't like is poorly controlled gun ownership. Anyone who thinks the USA's gun laws are adequate and appropriate for the 21st Century in deluded. Anyone who thinks that the Congress is about to turn on its own people is completely mad.

Then i would advise you start a thread on gun ownership laws.
I'm sorry, the title of this thread was apparently taken out of context and quite literally by too many people. Perhaps if you looked at the first couple posts i put up, that explained the title, you would understand what this thread is supposed to be about. Like for instance, Pedrinho created a thread called "kkk for dummies". That title was also slightly misleading. But, read the first post, and all is clear.

As it is, this thread has gone completely out of control, and I will no longer post on it.

I was on the road, and late as usual, but two points; it's just as dangerous to follow the thought line that certain people who do not meet your standards of gun ownership, or voting, or exercising any other right, should not be able to simply because you are afraid of what they MIGHT do. Free societies are not built on totalitarian restrictions. In the US, all not adjudicated or convicted or renounced citizenship, or any of the other prohibitions (in other words, all who retain the right) may exercise the right.

Two, I taught my sons the responsibility before I let them carry, but either can hit a fast moving clay or drop round after round into a bullseye. The militia in the US is composed of all the male (and probably soon! female) population of age and physical ability. If you do not believe the state can call you to service, you have are either young and have not read enough or old and have selective memory. You can report as trained rifleman or not, your choice. Even poor rifleman fulfill a function; they draw fire from those that can shoot. I don't consider myself a freak for sharing time with them, teaching life and death lessons over still warm game and on the ranges. The odds are low they need such skills, against a foreign enemy or against a criminal or madam an at home, but they were low when my father taught me, and I needed them.

I have guns for sport; hunting, clay sports, three gun, combat rifle and pistol. I have guns as collector pieces, historical arms of a military that my family has served in since 1776, when my tenth great grandfather shouldered a musket in the PA Musketry Battalion. He arrived at muster a rifleman, as I did in Desert Storm and Iraq, and the rest of the family did in the Civil War, the Great War, WWII and Vietnam. Governments are the greatest killers of the modern age. The "civilized" countries in the statistics thrown about are among the worst offenders. Many of those countries with low gun homicide rates go up a lot if you include the last 100 years and the slaughter they perpetuated and take the averages. England? Germany? Japan? France? Plenty of bloody hands, including Uncle Sam's. I have two tools to control my government. My vote protects my rights, and my gun protects my vote.

You will never, repeat, never, stop a determined criminal, crazed shooter, terrorist, or assorted madman that has enough time to plan. Restricting the rights of lawful citizens is not the way to start.

As usual Longrifle you make a clear, well thought out statement. Just one question, did you say " madam at home" ?

Very well written Longrifle. I like the way you put all that, proud and true.
Thank you, mach2

[*M] TR wrote: As usual Longrifle you make a clear, well thought out statement. Just one question, did you say " madam at home" ?

Hmm, I did SAY that, but meant to type "madman", though at my house the madam is just as likely to come at me with an axe as a madman. I can outrun the madam, so no gun required.

That's a good point too, my home defense is all about not making contact. Whenever there is contact there is always a chance you will lose. First line is to live in a secure neighborhood, second line, know your neighbors, third line, have a home that is hard to get in to (spiky plants under windows, steel doors, fourth line, have alarms and a dog to scare off the casual intruders looking for the quick steal to get their fix, fifth line, have a safe room, rehearsed plan to get there, sixth line, call 911 and stay on the line, call neighbors from second line and tell them the situation, seventh line, Smith and Wesson wheelgun, model 19 combat double action, easy function, no safety, no jam, no fumbling with slide, stored in biometric safe, two speed loaders with carry pouch that will clip on to anything including skivvies. Frangible ammo that won't go through sheetrock and retain lethality but will do wonders to human flesh. In my experience, the sight of a gun is usually the thing that makes the other guy change his political affiliation and/or decide to straighten up and live right. Clicking a hammer or shucking a slide has an immediate effect on the nervous system of the person the weapon is aimed at, usually bladder first.

Anybody that goes through the first six lines of defense without turning tail MEANS to do you harm; they are not casual intruders or opportunistic thieves, they are there to do you and your family harm and you have every right to defend yourself. If you don't like guns, keep a bat in the safe room, and hope a guy with a gun shows up soon.

[LB] Pedrinho wrote:

mach2 wrote: I beg your pardon sir, but who are you referring to by using the word 'freaks'?

I know I am probably going to disappoint some real friends I have here by doing this, but here it goes:
I consider a freak every parent that puts a gun on his kid's hands.

Sorry, guys, but that's what I think, and he asked. I have this malfuncion: I completely lack the capability of being silent when someone ask me what I think about some sort of subjects.
I am REALLY sorry, folks. That's me. Real me, as always. The drama queen. The stupid silly not-an-elf. Yeah, I am judging. But I am saying it outloud, not from behind velvet courtains. I just can NnnOT read this kind of question and pretend not reading it - I need to answer it. So, if one of you, my real friends, become upset with me by reading this, I am really sorry. Hope you forgive my judgement.
I need my meds. Really.

Pedrinho, the little I know of you led me to believe you were a nice guy, kind to all and definitely not one of those loud mouth trouble makers we know we have. I've read your posts and could tell a lot about the type person you are just from that. I may not always agree with your opinions and beliefs but that is no reason for me to dislike you or disrespect you. I enjnoy this forum and read more than I post. However, when I noticed this post Mac had started was on a subject that has always been a major interest of mine that I enjoy very much. It also happens to be a subject I'm very serious about. I was enjoying Mac's post and viewing the photos others shared. Then for no appropriate reason Biggs starts fragging what others were posting by his lengthy 'grand standing' attempting to impress everyone and tempt them to respond.
You jump down to support his rhetoric. Ok you two have similar beliefs contrary to the majority of forum members trying to enjoy a thread on something they have similar beliefs. I respect your opinion but was surprised when you disrespected everyone by referring to them as freaks. You two were clearly trying to cause trouble. The one who impressed me was Mac. More than once he calmly referred to you guys as friends and tactfully explained the post and how he understands everyone is entitled to their opinion but that his thread was not on or for members to air opinions on gun control.
Ped I asked you who you were referring to using freaks. You stated, every parent who puts a gun in a childs hand. I know Mac proudly shared a picture of his daughter with a mk III, SHOOTING metal silhouettes. That kid had the proper eye and ear protection, perfectly holding that pistol with proper form and close supervision of her father.. You know nothing about any of that but yet you want to disrespect a loyal friend who's asking you and buddy Biggs to stop trying to crash his thread and that's exactly what you were doing. Back to my request. I don't like for anyone to change what I wrote. Did I post a similar picture, was I slamming you in any way? What gives you the rite to judge or call me a freak.
I know you have certain things as well that you enjoy, believe in, and perhaps serious about as well. I can tell your open and honest just in your admitting to being or acting like a queen, and a stupid silly little not an elf, who likes velvet, and speaking out without fear letting everyone know what your really made of. You'd be surprised we knew long before this silly little problem.
Did it ever occur to you that most members see rite thru you and know some of the major reasons you feel and say the things you do about guns. Your deathly afraid of them but they don't slam you or call you names.
As for myself I believe that the man of a household, husband, and father has the major responsibility to protect his family against any evil or harm. The type of evil that is all around us and may come upon us at any time. I'm not going to stop to your level and tell you how I feel about men who want families and not prepared to defend them against any type of THREAT. Ped don't rely on your local pd, don't think that two fists, martial arts, your 5 iron or favorite ball bat is enough. You stated that you couldn't handle reading the posts on guns anymore, them why don't you flip the page or go to another thread.None is forcing you. Try showing the same courtesy and respect your loyal friends show you.

mach2 wrote:

[LB] Pedrinho wrote:

mach2 wrote: I beg your pardon sir, but who are you referring to by using the word 'freaks'?

I know I am probably going to disappoint some real friends I have here by doing this, but here it goes:
I consider a freak every parent that puts a gun on his kid's hands.

Sorry, guys, but that's what I think, and he asked. I have this malfuncion: I completely lack the capability of being silent when someone ask me what I think about some sort of subjects.
I am REALLY sorry, folks. That's me. Real me, as always. The drama queen. The stupid silly not-an-elf. Yeah, I am judging. But I am saying it outloud, not from behind velvet courtains. I just can NOT read this kind of question and pretend not reading it - I need to answer it. So, if one of you, my real friends, become upset with me by reading this, I am really sorry. Hope you forgive my judgement.
I need my meds. Really.

Pedrinho, the little I know of you led me to believe you were a nice guy, kind to all and definitely not one of those loud mouth trouble makers we know we have. I've read your posts and could tell a lot about the type person you are just from that. I may not always agree with your opinions and beliefs but that is no reason for me to dislike you or disrespect you. I enjnoy this forum and read more than I post. However, when I noticed this post Mac had started it was on a subject that has always been a major interest of mine that I enjoy very much. It also happens to be a subject I'm very serious about. I was enjoying Mac's post and viewing the photos others shared. Then for no appropriate reason Biggs starts fragging what others were posting by his lengthy 'grand standing' attempting to impress everyone and tempt them to respond.
You jump down to support his rhetoric. Ok you two have similar beliefs contrary to the majority of forum members trying to enjoy a thread on something they have similar beliefs. I respect your opinion but was surprised when you disrespected everyone by referring to them as freaks. You two were clearly trying to cause trouble. The one who impressed me was Mac. More than once he calmly referred to you guys as friends and tactfully explained the post and how he understands everyone is entitled to their opinion but that his thread was not on or for members to air opinions on gun control.
Ped I asked you who you were referring to using freaks. You started, every parent who puts a gun in a childs hand. I know Mac proudly shared a picture of his daughter with a mk III, SHOOTING metal silhouettes. That kid had the proper eye and ear protection, perfectly holding that pistol with proper form and close supervision of her father.. You know nothing about any of that but yet you want to disrespect a loyal friend who's asking you and buddy Biggs to stop trying to crash his thread and that's exactly what you were doing. Back to my request. Did I post a similar picture, was I slamming you in any way? What gives you the route to judge or call me a freak.
I know you have certain things as well that you enjoy, believe in, and perhaps serious about as well. I can tell your open and honest just in your admitting to being or acting like a queen, and a stupid silly little not an elf, who likes velvet, and speaking out without fear letting everyone know what your really made of. You'd be surprised we knew long before this silly little problem.
Did it ever occur to you that most members see rite thru you and know some of the major reasons you feel and say the things you do about guns. Your deathly afraid of them but they don't slam you or call you names.
As for myself I believe that the man of a household, husband, and father has the major responsibility to protect his family against any evil or harm. The type of evil that is all around us and may come upon us at any time. I'm not going to stop to your level and tell you how I feel about men who want families and not prepared to defend them against any type of THREAT. Ped don't rely on your local pd, don't think that two fists, martial arts, your 5 iron or favorite ball bat is enough. You stated that you couldn't handle reading the posts on guns anymore, them why don't you flip the page or go to another thread.None is forcing you. Try showing the same courtesy and respect your loyal friends show you.

note: that wasn't my daughter... I don't have a daughter

mach2 wrote: I respect your opinion but was surprised when you disrespected everyone by referring to them as freaks. You two were clearly trying to cause trouble.

Acting like this, I actualy try to AVOID trouble - troubles like, for example, a son-of-a-freak entering my daughter's school armed and shooting children.

But we are from different cultures, different ways of life, and I forgot it when I wrote that.
I am going to remember that before posting, from now on. I promise.

As I said, I knew I was going to cross a sensible line by saying that. Sorry to say it, but I don't use to "gild the lily".

The problem is: many USA citizens seems to live in a different planet, where it seems there are only USA, and nothing more. They simply don't consider the fact that there are other countries, with different cultures around. And mostly, they simply don't consider the fact that the other culture's represent more than 95% of the planet's population - and this forum is frequented not only by USA citizens, and not only by adults. That's the point.

You want to raise your children playing guns? Up to you, not my business. But please, don't make free, cheap publicity on world-wide forums about kids wearing guns. It's disgusting (if not disgusting for you, know that it is disgusting for more than 95% of the "rest" of the World).

Am I going to lose your respect for this? - Perhaps...
Do I care? - Hmmmmm...

Oops, I apologize Mac. My apologies to you as well Oneskone. Thank you for bringing that to my attention Mac.

Ped, You are doing it wrong!!

If you get offended because of this thread, stop reading and go to other threads! Shut this page and never come back.

I respect other cultures but I'm not going to give up an inch from my culture because of that. And I won't ask anybody else to give up theirs. And no. I'm not from US so maybe there are gun enthusiasts/hunters/shooters on other countries as well.

I am not offended. I only answer when I am quoted. And from Mach2 said, I am the offender here, you forgot it? I am the one who needs moderation, for using the word "freak" - not the ones that puts photographs of children wearing guns.

And for your information, there ARE gun enthusiasts and hunters here in Brazil. My mother's older brother used to hunt. But none of the good men down here puts guns on her daughter's hands. And even if some of them do it, they hide it, they don't make the stupid move of showing pictures of that on forums.

Im sick. This thread is a shame. And I am ashamed of taking part of this. I quit. You won.

I AM WRONG, YOU ALL ARE RIGHT. Are you satisfied??

Ped you are very sensitive to this and must try and relax. Easier said than doing it but try to relax. I know your quite upset. Would you like to go to another thread, I'll go with you. How about it.