Luna wrote: It's been a while since I've actually LOL'd on these forums. Thank you, Paul!!

On another note, is there any conceivable way we can just SEND Zup money? I'd be willing to give anonymous donations to avoid legal repercussions.

Legal repercussions? You thinking Echoboom might end up on the blacklist of foreign terrorist organizations

I guess they do sap the national workforce of valuable productivity as we all play DF. Might be all part of Zup's plan for world domination!

Yes, the last thing I want is to get court-martialed for privately funding a blacklist organization.

No, I meant any repercussions that could hurt Echoboom (such as a patron "donating" then suing because they did not get why they want ex post facto).

Quit Bug J4ff wrote: I am assuming this next phase will come out as an update.Can you send the update to apple first.As we all know they take forever to publish.If all platforms are released at the same time then android will be out in the same day.Will this mean that only android users will be on the premium servers until the other platforms get the update.It will be quiet out there.Or do the other platforms still get to use the premium servers for free until the update goes through?

You would need to send it to amazon about 6 months ago to get them caught up by the end of the year. My kindle is still on 4.4.55 and a mono wing D8. Thats just ridiculous.

Luna i dont know why we cant just hit the buy dogfight bucks button to send zup money. Surely that money goes to echoboom. Hit as much as you like.

Zup 5.00 lifetime is what i paid way back when i started. I dont think that you should go with a lifetime for 5.00. It has been less than 2 years since that time and here you are again. I would be happy to pay 5.00 per year for this game. That will keep you with income from now on. Is that enough? I hope so, in the end if you dont make money here you wont be in business much longer. I know there will be many who squawk about it but again you have to stay in business.

zuperman wrote: I already changed half of the servers to the new ones that will be for $. Did you guys notice less lag? Because they cost an arm and a leg lol

Nuevos servidores evitarán hackear el juego? Ya vez que tengo ciertos rencores contra los pilotos que vuelan cerca de la barrera del sonido. Soy un completo ignorante sobre eso, pero estoy seguro que algo tiene que ver la calibration de los controles en algunas pc

Unpopular opinion alert:

You get what you pay for. But you should only pay for what you get. And sometimes you don't get what you paid for two years ago. Twice.

I've purchased Dogfight twice, I've purchased "coins" I didn't need for upgrades I'd already earned, I've donated more of my time and energy than anyone not on echoboom's payroll.

Now I'm being asked to pay for it again? When for two years it's been crippled by bugs and lag and an absentee developer?

I do not propose to hold Joaquin's feet to the fire although given his behavior I'd be well within my rights to do so. I know Dogfight is a labor of love, I know he shares my passion for WWI aviation, I know the game is fun and addictive. It's also broken and frustrating in ways that no self respecting developer should allow his application to be. I fail to see the logic in gushing gratitude and deference to a businessman with a broken product and a repeatedly failed business model. In what other set of circumstances would that make sense? "Mr. Used Car Dealer, you sold me a sedan that works great except when the back wheels fall off at high speed every five minutes. I love you. Can I please buy my car again once a month?" The fact that the game is essentially free is echoboom's end of the tacit agreement that says, "You play for nothing, we don't owe you a professional product." If the game were stable, bug-free and improved upon regularly a pricing structure would make sense. If the game were allowed to rot with little or no maintenance (as has been the case) not charging for it would make sense.

Charging for a buggy, laggy, stagnant game does not make sense.

Dogfight is either the college vanity project it started as or a serious, professional game app. It's had five years to decide but still can't make up its mind. If it's the former I don't expect anything more of it than what we've gotten (which is a ton of fun for a remedial app) and I don't hold Joaquin accountable for the failings of a hobby project. I likewise don't expect to be expected to pay again for what I've already bought that's only ever been maddeningly flawed. If it's a serious product - and with Apple, Google and Microsoft claims of multi-millions of downloads I don't know how to support the argument that it's still a one-man non-profit basement enterprise in dire need of "donations" - I expect it to be maintained and quality controlled and expanded and improved like any other software product I'm asked to pay for regardless of the price.

When I began playing Dogfight there were six mission types. Each side had half a dozen available planes. The map lacked any historical accuracy or detail. It was approximately 8 miles square, with two bases and two distinctly illogically WWII aircraft carriers. Technical issues included lag and dropped connections. Players expressed concern about chat/forum trolls and there was a consensus demand for moderators. Odd anomalous glitches persisted.

Flash forward nearly three years.

Dogfight has six mission types. Each side has half a dozen available planes. The map lacks any historical accuracy or detail. It is approximately 8 miles square, with two bases and two distinctly illogically WWII aircraft carriers. Technical issues include lag and dropped connections. Players express concern about chat/forum trolls and there is a consensus demand for moderators. Odd anomalous glitches persist.

Multiply the server count by six, multiply the player base by twelve, multiply the lag by six times twelve, add Windows sync lag, shake up the plane rotations slightly and slap some pre-fab paint skins on them...and explain to me again why anyone would want to pay for a product that after five years is 10% better than it was in some minor ways and 60% worse than it was in most major ways. We've accommodated echoboom countless times; the Kickstarter campaign. The "100k Downloads Weekend". The booting of every member from every squad to facilitate a server reconfiguration for Squad Wars. The herculean task of subdividing squads...to facilitate another server reconfiguration for Squad Wars. Two years of talking about and prepping for Squad Wars and no Squad Wars.

Are the new servers going to magically fix what's broken and host the new mission types and maps and terrain detail and Squad Wars for which we've been waiting patiently for years? I'll pay for it when I see it. I'd even pay within reason for the current limited game with the glaring bugs and glitches addressed. But not much. If we're talking about paying again for the same tired game and the same bugs and (maybe) the server performance we should have had all along, I'll pass.

I've just noticed that the rankings are f*cked up. Again. After working harder than any semi intelligent person should to hold the top spot I'm suddenly no longer in it and someone with literally millions fewer points has been leapfrogged over me without earning the distinction. Do I care? Yeah, sure I do, a little. Any other game that so obviously failed to maintain even an accurate leader-board to say nothing of a generally stable game would be dead in the water inside of a month. Who would play such a game? You can't play for a sense of accomplishment or to measure your personal progress if the accuracy of the scoring and ranking is untrustworthy. You can't play for a sense of team camaraderie if the promised team play mode never gets beyond the promise stage. I'm seriously gobsmacked...why are people so happily tolerant of being shortchanged? What possible excuse is there for bringing a shoddy product to market, letting it twist in the wind with crippling bugs for months at a stretch, then upping the price? The broken rankings thing is just one more glitch on the pile and it occurred because of yet another poorly executed server reconfiguration in an effort to achieve...the same game, essentially unchanged. A half step sideways and two steps back, always.

World of Warcraft is $14.99 per month. Bubbletown is free. Consider which one Dogfight falls nearer on that spectrum in terms of depth, scope, variety, stability (actually, Bubbletown is rock solid, and the leader-board works)...then price it accordingly. I don't begrudge echoboom a profit for a great game, in fact I've gone to some lengths to help promote just that for all the thanks I've not gotten. As soon as echoboom provides a great game I'll be glad to be part of its revenue stream. The game requires an overhaul and in no other business, anywhere, do customers bear the burden of funding a broken product up front on zero promise of it ever being fixed and improved. You get what you pay for or you refuse to pay. You don't pay for what you eventually might possibly get if the guy with the keys to the store has time. That would not make sense.

Not sure I've yet chimed in. I will say I'm not top dog and quite frankly don't expect to be. True world rankings on the forum are messed up as my game ranking differs slightly from forum ranking...I would expect the higher I go the more accurate they may become. Yes I've experienced lag..BUT I have also experienced so good play. For me, shooting red is a stress relief and more importantly, the game has allowed some great friends in my life...even some I've met in person. It is amazing to see that person face to face and put the name to a face. All in all, I'd donate again. Flying for me is a passion..and even better that I walk away from every crash I will also add that any app I've downloaded is a work in progress...this one included.

I would advise against a one time payment. Servers don't last forever and you will find yourself right back here again. I am fine with a reasonable play fee. I would prefer to pay for a year if possible so as not to be bothered with monthly payments. You might consider that as an option.
The rate you decide on will determine who stays and who leaves. So be thoughtful in your deliberations.
This may very well change the complexion of this game. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I agree .all canon games need improvements and all improvements need money.

As always wig its nice to see you and read (wow) what you have to say, And Zup to push his point its been 2days 15hrs sense you started this thread and no a word sense. This is also what Paul and others have tried to point out to you, its like your not there most of the time. Open up the Heavens and let your words be heard show us you exist give us a sign ol mighty Zuperman show us you hear our prayers amen.....


oh and hi Luna

My 2 cents... My wife hates this game, however I love it! With her running the finances, a monthly fee would be a hard sell. However a yearly fee of let's say $10, wouldn't be much of a hassle. So if it comes to $ I think that the best option would be $1 a month or $10 a year. I feel that this amount of cash would be reasonable no matter where u are from. For the new players, $1 for a month of play should be reasonable for their "trial period".
You know what they say happy wife, happy life! Why poke the bear if you don't have to.

Wigbomb wrote: Unpopular opinion alert:

You get what you pay for. But you should only pay for what you get. And sometimes you don't get what you paid for two years ago. Twice.

I've purchased Dogfight twice, I've purchased "coins" I didn't need for upgrades I'd already earned, I've donated more of my time and energy than anyone not on echoboom's payroll.

Now I'm being asked to pay for it again? When for two years it's been crippled by bugs and lag and an absentee developer?

I do not propose to hold Joaquin's feet to the fire although given his behavior I'd be well within my rights to do so. I know Dogfight is a labor of love, I know he shares my passion for WWI aviation, I know the game is fun and addictive. It's also broken and frustrating in ways that no self respecting developer should allow his application to be. I fail to see the logic in gushing gratitude and deference to a businessman with a broken product and a repeatedly failed business model. In what other set of circumstances would that make sense? "Mr. Used Car Dealer, you sold me a sedan that works great except when the back wheels fall off at high speed every five minutes. I love you. Can I please buy my car again once a month?" The fact that the game is essentially free is echoboom's end of the tacit agreement that says, "You play for nothing, we don't owe you a professional product." If the game were stable, bug-free and improved upon regularly a pricing structure would make sense. If the game were allowed to rot with little or no maintenance (as has been the case) not charging for it would make sense.

Charging for a buggy, laggy, stagnant game does not make sense.

Dogfight is either the college vanity project it started as or a serious, professional game app. It's had five years to decide but still can't make up its mind. If it's the former I don't expect anything more of it than what we've gotten (which is a ton of fun for a remedial app) and I don't hold Joaquin accountable for the failings of a hobby project. I likewise don't expect to be expected to pay again for what I've already bought that's only ever been maddeningly flawed. If it's a serious product - and with Apple, Google and Microsoft claims of multi-millions of downloads I don't know how to support the argument that it's still a one-man non-profit basement enterprise in dire need of "donations" - I expect it to be maintained and quality controlled and expanded and improved like any other software product I'm asked to pay for regardless of the price.

When I began playing Dogfight there were six mission types. Each side had half a dozen available planes. The map lacked any historical accuracy or detail. It was approximately 8 miles square, with two bases and two distinctly illogically WWII aircraft carriers. Technical issues included lag and dropped connections. Players expressed concern about chat/forum trolls and there was a consensus demand for moderators. Odd anomalous glitches persisted.

Flash forward nearly three years.

Dogfight has six mission types. Each side has half a dozen available planes. The map lacks any historical accuracy or detail. It is approximately 8 miles square, with two bases and two distinctly illogically WWII aircraft carriers. Technical issues include lag and dropped connections. Players express concern about chat/forum trolls and there is a consensus demand for moderators. Odd anomalous glitches persist.

Multiply the server count by six, multiply the player base by twelve, multiply the lag by six times twelve, add Windows sync lag, shake up the plane rotations slightly and slap some pre-fab paint skins on them...and explain to me again why anyone would want to pay for a product that after five years is 10% better than it was in some minor ways and 60% worse than it was in most major ways. We've accommodated echoboom countless times; the Kickstarter campaign. The "100k Downloads Weekend". The booting of every member from every squad to facilitate a server reconfiguration for Squad Wars. The herculean task of subdividing squads...to facilitate another server reconfiguration for Squad Wars. Two years of talking about and prepping for Squad Wars and no Squad Wars.

Are the new servers going to magically fix what's broken and host the new mission types and maps and terrain detail and Squad Wars for which we've been waiting patiently for years? I'll pay for it when I see it. I'd even pay within reason for the current limited game with the glaring bugs and glitches addressed. But not much. If we're talking about paying again for the same tired game and the same bugs and (maybe) the server performance we should have had all along, I'll pass.

I've just noticed that the rankings are f*cked up. Again. After working harder than any semi intelligent person should to hold the top spot I'm suddenly no longer in it and someone with literally millions fewer points has been leapfrogged over me without earning the distinction. Do I care? Yeah, sure I do, a little. Any other game that so obviously failed to maintain even an accurate leader-board to say nothing of a generally stable game would be dead in the water inside of a month. Who would play such a game? You can't play for a sense of accomplishment or to measure your personal progress if the accuracy of the scoring and ranking is untrustworthy. You can't play for a sense of team camaraderie if the promised team play mode never gets beyond the promise stage. I'm seriously gobsmacked...why are people so happily tolerant of being shortchanged? What possible excuse is there for bringing a shoddy product to market, letting it twist in the wind with crippling bugs for months at a stretch, then upping the price? The broken rankings thing is just one more glitch on the pile and it occurred because of yet another poorly executed server reconfiguration in an effort to achieve...the same game, essentially unchanged. A half step sideways and two steps back, always.

World of Warcraft is $14.99 per month. Bubbletown is free. Consider which one Dogfight falls nearer on that spectrum in terms of depth, scope, variety, stability (actually, Bubbletown is rock solid, and the leader-board works)...then price it accordingly. I don't begrudge echoboom a profit for a great game, in fact I've gone to some lengths to help promote just that for all the thanks I've not gotten. As soon as echoboom provides a great game I'll be glad to be part of its revenue stream. The game requires an overhaul and in no other business, anywhere, do customers bear the burden of funding a broken product up front on zero promise of it ever being fixed and improved. You get what you pay for or you refuse to pay. You don't pay for what you eventually might possibly get if the guy with the keys to the store has time. That would not make sense.

.....but...........the banners are better........(just saying) Well, not mine.......O.K........

Mis 2 centavos ... Mi esposa odia este juego, sin embargo, me encanta! Con su marcha a las finanzas, una cuota mensual sería difícil de vender. Sin embargo, una cuota anual de digamos $ 10, no sería mucho de un molestia. Así que si se trata de $ Creo que la mejor opción sería de $ 1 por mes o $ 10 al año. Siento que esta cantidad de dinero en efectivo sería razonable no importa donde u son de. Para los nuevos jugadores, $ 1 para un mes de juego debe ser razonable para su "período de prueba".
Ya sabes lo que dicen esposa feliz, vida feliz! ¿Por qué meter el oso si no tiene que hacerlo.

Here, here. Wig bomb for president!!!

Your Enemy wrote: Here, here. Wig bomb for president!!!

Um who's the opponent?

His last name is "Joke", I can never remember the rest. He's running on the Server Glitch ticket.

Well wig, you are finally right, obama is a very forgettable name lol lol

Hey can anybody help me with this:
I am using Windows 8.1 64 bit.
sometime my screen splits into two, making it impossible to play. here is snapshot:



This usually happens when I am on ground.
otherwise please direct me to where I could get help.

Thanks

Armament wrote: Hey can anybody help me with this:
I am using Windows 8.1 64 bit.
sometime my screen splits into two, making it impossible to play. here is snapshot:

This usually happens when I am on ground.
otherwise please direct me to where I could get help.

Thanks

That's an old on, haven't see that for ages. Usually closing the game and restarting is enough to fix it. It used to be caused by some proposed 3D kit from Oculus , but I thought Zup pulled all the code out.

Thanks for the reply.

I haven't faced this problem in quite some time in Festuberrt or Vimy Ridge, but it surfaced twice in Messines yesterday. the snapshot is of the second instance (for which the solution proposed by Whether[*M]an is that I switch to third person view before entering tank, since this can happen when you enter the tank in first person perspective.

The first type is more problematic; when I am in a plane and get shot by a tank, then on re-spawning as a plane, my screen is split.

Armament wrote: Thanks for the reply.

I haven't faced this problem in quite some time in Festuberrt or Vimy Ridge, but it surfaced twice in Messines yesterday. the snapshot is of the second instance (for which the solution proposed by Whether[*M]an is that I switch to third person view before entering tank, since this can happen when you enter the tank in first person perspective.

The first type is more problematic; when I am in a plane and get shot by a tank, then on re-spawning as a plane, my screen is split.

Have u tried un-installing and reinstalling game ??Also turn off all extra detail in settings !!! Trees.Clouds Ect.

Thanks for the reply.
this is a fresh installation.
I will try with turning the extra details off.
thanks for the tip Punk[m]Chef.

.

I don't know if can keep up cash wise and im 90k to lvl 30 >.<
Then literally just ONE MORE LEVEL!!

Buckgeo wrote:

zuperman wrote: I already changed half of the servers to the new ones that will be for $. Did you guys notice less lag? Because they cost an arm and a leg lol

Zup,

Which servers did you change?

There is gonna be a pay option of some description coming soon so thats now in Z's hands.But i don't see anyone really saying much about these new servers.
After playin a couple of days since the change over i dont see any significant positive over the old free ones.if anything there is just as much lag as there was.planes vanishing,lazer beams,warping after a bad lag glitch,red warning on screen.it even feels more jittery.
So which servers do i try to see this improvement worth paying for?

Not sure if my input's still welcome here, but...

First, I think we should all give a huge amount of credit to Joaquin for keeping this money-pit of a game going for the past five years. Unless something's changed (Doesn't appear like it), I don't think this game has ever turned a profit. He started off with (I assume) just one server, and has steadily had to pour mucho dinero into adding more servers, more features and random stuff to make the experience just a little better.

There's a huge issue with people not wanting to pay for mobile apps and games in a way that doesn't happen with games that they take just as seriously on a console. Anyone on this forum's put more time into this game than they would into most games that they'd pay $60 plus add-ons for. There's no good reason for money to be an issue, but it is.

On that note, maybe it's time to re-visit DF Elite. Putting out a console quality game would be the best way to (eventually) turn a profit. From what I've seen reading a few posts, this game is reaching an older audience, and presumably a wealthier one. Assuming that the estimated cost to produce DF Elite hasn't gone up significantly from $150k, and Paul's offer still stands, maybe it could be done. Reaching out to veteran groups and other flight forums would surely bring in some real cash. We got 2/3 of the way a couple years ago, is it time to try it again?

In regard to the present issue of the servers, I hate the idea of payed and free servers. It creates a number of issues that would be ultimately detrimental to the cash flow of Echoboom. It may discourage new players from continuing once they get fed up with the laggy servers. It prevents the experienced players from acting as moderators and role models for the noobs, which could create a COD style atmosphere among the "lower class", which would be awful for everyone.

That being said, this may be a necessary evil. Without the servers that Microsoft has been providing for the past couple years, Jouaquin has to fuel the server fire with twenties at an ever increasing pace. Charging a few bucks per month would be awful, but far, far better than nothing.

The only alternative I see (unless someone wants to shmooz Microsoft into giving the funding back - looking at you, Paul. Always the charmer ) is to try to fund quality severs for everyone though the small group of people on the forum with the dedication and cash to do that. This, of course, creates issues with ever being able to put out Elite, even if Joaquin could bring in enough cash from here.

Lesser of two evils, I guess. Which one is lesser, who knows. Either way, I think that Elite should be the final goal, as that could turn a real profit for once.

CALVIN,

Your presence has been greatly missed, you charmer.
Most here won't know you since you've been gone so long. (CAL was once a stalwart, driving force here. Someone that you younger folks should emulate. A young man with class.)
As far as me helping more, I've attempted and have been ignored, as have others. When there is no comment from above for an extended amount of time people get discouraged. Many have, as have I.
I hope you are doing well in life and in school.

Miss you,
Paul

I've missed being here, Paul. I'm on my way to getting an IB (International Baccalaureate) degree, and between that and sports, there's not a whole lot of time to fly.

I may have been a BMOC around here, but I never carried the weight you did. (Read: 50% more posts, 15% as many thank yous )

Coming from you, I've got no doubt that there's huge issues with how DF is being run. I'm not sure why, but it's been this way since *420* and Gyshan were becoming the first rank 15 MORAFs, and that was before even I was here. I'm not sure why, maybe Echoboom just needs someone running PR. I never had the privilege of being part of the forum when Joaquin (That's Z, for anyone who might not know) was truly active in the community. Even when I was a big deal here, he had no idea who I was. That lack of awareness is an issue, but a fairly easy one to fix.

Zupe will be recieving, in short order, a PM and emails to every email of his that I can find. I choose not to air dirty laundry in public for his sake.

i still love the idea of DF Elite on console. it would be easier in some respects to deal with just sony and microsoft rather than umpteen versions of android and iOS and all the hundreds of different devices and how they digest the game. BUT if you are thinking you are going to escape serious lag issues you are dreaming. i played nothing but console airwar games ( birds of prey, birds of steel, and others ) and lag was always a problem....especially when japanese players came on. they could fly underwater, through hills, etc. we were able to resolve this issue by hosting private games that players could get in by invitation only. we regulated who and that worked somewhat. KNOW THIS as well. some of the lag issues in this game could be MAN MADE ON PURPOSE by players cheating. in consoles cheaters rigged up "LAG SWITCHES" which they would use to stop the flow of info from their console to the server for a few seconds...during that time they could fly right up behind someone undetected. they they would reappear just in time to blast them to pieces. i thought this kind of device could only be used on console but it isnt. google LAG SWITCH PROGRAM FOR ANDROID and you will get your eyes opened. i would be willing to bet there are some players out there using this to unfair advantage and the game/server is getting the blame....

also understand that updates for consoles are not free. the dev has to pay $40,000 per up date...per region ( europe, us, asia, etc)! so they just cant do a quick fix overnight and send it out. this is where mobile devices are scores ahead of console play. so if the game comes out and had a few bugs....the fixes will wait until the dev has fixed a bunch and can put out the update so it will be cost effective.

bobbysox wrote: i still love the idea of DF Elite on console. it would be easier in some respects to deal with just sony and microsoft rather than umpteen versions of android and iOS and all the hundreds of different devices and how they digest the game. BUT if you are thinking you are going to escape serious lag issues you are dreaming. i played nothing but console airwar games ( birds of prey, birds of steel, and others ) and lag was always a problem....especially when japanese players came on. they could fly underwater, through hills, etc. we were able to resolve this issue by hosting private games that players could get in by invitation only. we regulated who and that worked somewhat. KNOW THIS as well. some of the lag issues in this game could be MAN MADE ON PURPOSE by players cheating. in consoles cheaters rigged up "LAG SWITCHES" which they would use to stop the flow of info from their console to the server for a few seconds...during that time they could fly right up behind someone undetected. they they would reappear just in time to blast them to pieces. i thought this kind of device could only be used on console but it isnt. google LAG SWITCH PROGRAM FOR ANDROID and you will get your eyes opened. i would be willing to bet there are some players out there using this to unfair advantage and the game/server is getting the blame....

also understand that updates for consoles are not free. the dev has to pay $40,000 per up date...per region ( europe, us, asia, etc)! so they just cant do a quick fix overnight and send it out. this is where mobile devices are scores ahead of console play. so if the game comes out and had a few bugs....the fixes will wait until the dev has fixed a bunch and can put out the update so it will be cost effective.

One kind of lag I have seen often and seems to be purposeful is when you hit a pilot any number of times, he just keeps flying and bombs your location, then the message comes that he was brought down by so and so. The thing to do is to put as many bullets in them as possible. that way, every time they re-spawn, the lag catches up with them and they get 'brought down by' you several times. the case I remember best was a noob who was bombing our hangars. he bombed twice or thrice, after which, when I saw him approach, I pumped full of lead him head on, and then cut a circle behind him and emptied the rest of my magazine in his sorry behind; for the entire rest of the game, the message '... brought down by armament' kept flashing; he was basically pinned to the runway! he left after a while.

Emailed Zup early afternoon to request he keep us updated on where he is with DF. He replied quickly saying he is migrating servers. That is why we can't get into some of the servers. He is trying to complete the migration so he can keep everyone playing the game. He will deal with other issues (where do we go from here) after the migration.