Has this been made effective yet? Anyone tested it? It may be worthwhile to post it a few times in world chat, once we confirm it working. As seemingly frustrating as WC may be, it's probably the best place to announce it... Again and again. As it was stated in another thread. EVERYONE sees the same WC even the noob server jockeys.

ParrotHead wrote: Has this been made effective yet? Anyone tested it? It may be worthwhile to post it a few times in world chat, once we confirm it working. As seemingly frustrating as WC may be, it's probably the best place to announce it... Again and again. As it was stated in another thread. EVERYONE sees the same WC even the noob server jockeys.

Someone (Wig??) mentioned in a game yesterday that he lost 800 points shooting a teammate by accident.

this has been already implemented in the servers. If you team kill or bomb friendly hangars your points will be deducted

zuperman wrote: this has been already implemented in the servers. If you team kill or bomb friendly hangars your points will be deducted

How many points and for what Zup?

Plane=
Tank=
Soldier=
Hanger=

Blue Max Young wrote:

zuperman wrote: this has been already implemented in the servers. If you team kill or bomb friendly hangars your points will be deducted

How many points and for what Zup?

Plane=
Tank=
Soldier=
Hanger=

CROCKETT=

CROCKETT is actually the only thing you can still get positive points for TKing. At least that's the word on the streets.

CROCKETT TK=plus 1000

Get em while they are hot noobs.

Blue Max Young wrote:

zuperman wrote: this has been already implemented in the servers. If you team kill or bomb friendly hangars your points will be deducted

How many points and for what Zup?

Plane=
Tank=
Soldier=
Hanger=

I believe it's 200 points *per bullet* and 1000 points per hangar. I'm guessing tanks and soldiers are 200 points per bullet as well. Even when they're already dead.

After careful review of the play, I reverse my previous call to un-segregate the servers.

At 200 & 1000 per shot, the teamkilling noobs will never get out of the lower servers!

Bahahahaha

Davy Crockett wrote: A brilliant ideal by PARROT.

On the blacklist thread he suggested removing points like a 1000 points for a teamkill.

Could be expanded for language also.

I bet this would sure stop the majority of the jerks who are ruining games.

Absolutely brilliant PARROT, as a matter of fact it's so brilliant that it's a wonder i didn't think of it first.

WHAT ARE THE THOUGHTS OF THE REST OF YOU, GOOD IDEAL? CAN IT EVEN BE IMPLEMENTED?

Not a good idea at all! What if you hit someone by accident and then you get your hard earned points deducted! That would be terrible.If I hit this fancy plane it would cost a lot!

It will cost you 200 points a bullet to hit that tricked out hooptie. 259.99 if you scratch the 20" spinners. Whoop! Der it is.

Already in effect.

No mas friendly zeppelin popping either.

Negativo on any friendly tank shopping to end carrier games.

I understand the dismay this may cause for some. When I started, I lost 50 points a pop for unintentional friendly fire and it sucked. At some point that was suspended. I'm not sure when.

Now its back and has some teeth. If you know you could lose 200-400 or more for a teamkill, but you only get 50 (a little more for high rank targets) it isn't worth teamkilling. If you know you could lose points by firing into a swarm of red and blue, you'll use a little more restraint and learn to better control your shots. I realize some think it's too much if a penalty and appreciate that. I just don't agree.

Friendly team bombing... Hit one or 2 friendly hangars and lose a couple grand? Fantastic! This is by far the biggest game ruining act out there.

I really believe the vast majority of " oh I'm bored so I'll shot my teammate" teamkillers will learn that restraint before leaving the noob servers. Those that don't, won't make it out of the kiddie pool and they can sit there in that pissy water and rot for all I care.

Didn't it used to be a negative of some sort for getting shot down. I remember being 15,000 something in the hole. I never TKd so it was something like that.

Edit: Yes I sucked when I started the game. spawnkilling noobs for fun was a sport that some enjoyed way to much.

Geshhh why does Parrot always get the good ideas???(sniffle sniffle) pshhh "wasn't that great"

Well, I got my first penalties tonite. Legit accidental friendly fire. 2 stray hits and one of them was on a dead plane, but still deducted and one inadvertent team kill for -400.

This will definitely make me aim more carefully and the points don't even do anything for me anymore!

No more being a Seinfeld "Close Stander" for me! I will barrel roll to one side of a teammate before I start shooting at the reds ahead.
Actually, I had it wrong. It's Seinfeld "Close Talker."

$$http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGVSIkEi3mM%+$$

I knew this, but last time I corrected you didn't work out so good for me. Glad you got straight though...

ParrotHead wrote: Well, I got my first penalties tonite. Legit accidental friendly fire. 2 stray hits and one of them was on a dead plane, but still deducted and one inadvertent team kill for -400.

This will definitely make me aim more carefully and the points don't even do anything for me anymore!

don't feel bad PH, I took -1600 last night. 3 different guys flying in front of me while I was shooting at a red player. 1 hit each -600. 1 friendly hanger kill. spawned in a game 3 reds at my base. Dropped to dispatch them. Doh!!!! Killed one of my hangers.

It is worth it. I don't mind the accidents. They are my fault. -1600 points for accidents, just imagine the purposeful TKers score. No rank up for you folks.

I've posted the following on the M.O.M thread. Here it is again complete with Parrothead's response and those of several other players who had no idea this was even under discussion, much less implemented and already robbing them of points.

Wig

Does anyone know where a thread or sequence of posts can be found that refer to raising the point penalty for blue on blue kills? I've been in contact with Joaquin over what I naturally assumed is a glitch - a 500 point penalty for nicking a blue's wing, 1000 points for knocking a blue down - and he informs me that these penalties are not only accurate, but that some player(s) actually requested them!

Are you, whomever you are, outta your f*ckin' mind?!?!

I was just in a BTB, 2 vs. 6, with the reds going high and diving, swarming in, camping, spawnkilling (thanks Musicious, Fragmental, et al including a couple very disappointing M.O.Ms...I love when ugly sh*t like that ends with everyone on the winning team saying "GG"...yeah, put that one in your scrapbook, quite the accomplishment) ... and as they were storming in I took down four of the five but also hit my teammate in the snarl.

So for stopping four reds I got 200 points. And for accidentally killing one blue I lost 1000 points. Just a wing hit, not a take down, costs 500 points. Ten good kills or carrier hits or bombed hangars wiped out for accidentally clipping a blue's wing. With the lag, skipping, jutter, f*cked up frame rate issues all being what they are...you lose the point equivalent of TWENTY clean kills for one unintentional team kill? WTF?!?!? Are you completely nuts?

If I can't fire into a crowd of reds for fear that I might lose all the points I've amassed for the past twenty minutes - or if a blue wandering/lagging into my fire does the same - I'll f*cking well go high and dive, too, when I'm one of six or seven blues.

These wildly disproportionate fines don't do a damn thing to discourage teamkillers, if that was the misguided goal. Teamkillers don't give a rat's ass about losing points. Next time think it through. And Joaquin, drop these ridiculous penalty amounts now, please. 50 points was fine. 1000 points is insane.

Parrothead

Wig,

That was my suggestion. It was was picked up and carried by many. I didn't think it was 500. 1000 for a hangar, yes. I thought zup said it was 200. Having lost my share of points today, I get where you're coming from. I don't agree that teamkillers don't care about points. Those that have made it to the upper servers, might be in that category, but a noob trying rank and make bank to upgrade planes would think about it.

Sorry we're not on the same page on this. The 50 point penalty was suspended months ago, btw. Zup reinstated it and up the number and added hangars to it. He did say if there was a big ruckus about it, he take it out again.

Wig

Then he needs to take it out again. It's wildly disproportionate to what it's intended, and will almost always fail, to achieve. If the best we can do to discourage teamkillers (of which there are far fewer than the hue and cry on this forum would give one to believe) is to penalize the 99.9% who are interested in accruing points honestly and have no teamkilling ambitions (where does that info come from? I'm unaware of any empirical data to support anything at all to do with teamkilling, its motivations or even its frequency) then we need to spend more time at the drawing board.

The now accurately larger hangars have produced more accidentally bombed hangars than the inflated teamkilling penalties have discouraged teamkills. I first began to become aware of this a couple weeks ago when watching a comparative noob doing his best to shoot down every other blue on our team. One by one he tried his luck. When I saw him finally draw smoke from his third attempted target I teed him up and blew him down. Then took the time to tell him if he kept it up he'd be banned. Higher fines for teamkilling didn't harm him in the least, but I now realize it cost me 1000 points to protect a teammate, something I'll not do again given the knowledge of the over-inflated penalty. I'll just let that fellow blue fend for himself and type something about banning the teamkiller while my teammate is being shot in the back. This is not my idea of strengthening the game experience.

I would much rather have a jerk destroy blue hangars than to see you, Parrot, or someone else, hit the bomb button when being swarmed/camped and inadvertently take out a friendly hangar or three as often happens now...then be spanked for as much as 3000 points. Better to tighten the parameters of the teamkilling 5-minute ban than to punish clean players for unavoidable mistakes that happen virtually every single session of play. Make it two teamkills or hangars and you take a five minute time out, that's enough to stop a game from being ruined and not a severe enough sanction to do more than send a clean player to the fridge for a glass of milk then straight back into the game. A thousand points for one teamkill, whether plane or hangar, is entirely too much. You're sending the wrong messages to the wrong people and doing very little actual good in the process. I don't want to lose any more points for simply playing hard and I don't want to see you lose them, either.

Personally I've always felt that the general obsession with teamkilling is overwrought. Back when I joined DF we dealt with teamkillers easily; called a truce, all reds and blues ganged up on the teamkiller, almost invariably the teamkiller took a brutal pounding and left. It contributed to the sense of community, everyone protecting our game together. (and no, we do not need a "TASK" force and never have) There are Moderators policing the game and on the whole I'd say we do a fairly respectable job.

Joaquin has my feelings about this in a personal email. It needs to be changed back to 50 points, or no points (and let us deal with teamkilling appropriately as it arises, which is infrequently) asap.

RAPTOR

Wow! I disagree with this point punishment to the point of ...... Something really profoundest !!!!! ( yes PH i know thats not propper)!!! Duuuuude your a smart guy what is up?

TK dont really care about piont! It goes against there idiotic CREED and counterproductive to there own stupid play of the game. They were getting pionts for killing blue thats how the parasites got here to the big kidds server.

So to punish the terds that fly around killing team mates, we the Borderline hororable all the way to swop and everyone inbetween will loos piont, ( myself by the thousands a day) with -500 for wingin and -1000 for the "crap so sorry, didnt mean to". Total BS!! We are going to loose millions of piont to punish pilots who could give a flying . ..... You know.

I hate to admit this here but wth, everyone will know by the end of the week when i spawn in as group leader, due to this punishment system. Truth is i wing a blue nearly every damn game!!! and god help me now when a sever setts up tbe game 1/ 7!!!!! And blues are the 7 all going after the single red!!! Damn it man not the way punishment is fair. I dont SK, or TK, maliciously, its never done premeditated, so whe it happens, its always a miss calculation, or sometimes they unexspectedly fly into the line of fire!!!

This is stupid! And will NOT work! Wtf bappened to banishment, that accually seemed to effect the targeted!!!!!!

RAPTOR again

My apolgies for coming over to your thread and voicing my uninvited opinion on the matter, i mean no disrespect at all. Really just surprised PH has taken up heavey drinking.. Im kidding PH, i truely am surprised you support this.

I guess if you have tons of piont the every now and then accidental wont hurt much at all.

It does effect he lower ranking/newer players in a big way, which effects DF future. My boy, Jr was asking me why he was down a thousand points earlier. I wasnt awere of the brainfart pionts lost rule thingy. So i said i didnt know. Well a game hes been professing his love for as the best game ever, suddenly became the stupidest game, "why play when your pionts disapear" a quote rom my 12yr Jr.

Now, no matter how cool i package this its going to be seen as a stupid rule in a cool package. To the fure of this game....

Cause when your trying like hell to get to the next level 7500 pionts and you just had 1000 of your hard earned 3400 takin away, due to poor players, the game seems not as fun.

I hope it is terminated, this points punishment. The game doesnt need it, and it will hurt it.

Bellsaj

Is it 500 per hit?
Blowing up a friendly tank is how much... 2500?
I never or rarely look at the points while playing.
Did I loose 2000 points yesterday then for shoting a blue tank shoting at the blue teams spwaning point?

Thats just wrong...

Gizmo

I've got to agree with wig this points deductions has got to stop,played a game yesterday accidentally killed a blue and clipped another
Lost 1500 points,you could say I should be more carful but it happens in the heat of battle,I know we can get 1500 points back in an hour or so but to a beginner that's going to take a long time,please zupp reconsider this penalty.

Wig

I've just emailed Joaquin and recommended that he avoid a mass revolt by dumping this nutty points-penalty concept. Everyone I've mentioned it to has been, a) unaware of it, and, b) pissed off. I've been getting a ton of questions recently, like, "Wig, my points are going down. Why?" I had no answer. Now we know.

Here's what I've suggested to Z:

Either return to the 50-point penalty for a blue-on-blue kill...and get rid of the penalty for a wing hit...or dump the point penalties completely and revise the temp-auto-ban. Instead of a 5 minute ban after 5 blue kills, trigger the ban after 2 or 3. And consider putting the auto-ban on a clock. After 15-minutes the clock resets. Many of us have played games that lasted a couple hours with kill scores into the triple digits. In those marathons blue hits and/or kills happen a lot. 2 friendly kills every 15 minutes before you're banned would preserve the game for most of us. Team killing noobs lack that kind of patience. But if it's a ton of extra work for Joaquin the old 50-point penalty system worked fine.

I'm gonna say it again: I advocate no points-based penalties in what is a points-based game where kids like Raptor's work hard, play clean, and get punished for honest mistakes. That policy simply doesn't fly. And I advocate ganging up on teamkillers like we used to do, it never failed. Repeat offenders would quickly come to the attention of the entire community and, once the Mods were appointed, would find themselves banned long-term.

I supported the high negative points idea as well. But after some time with it, I agree that all it really affects is the law abiding citizen. With the severe penalty in place, I am much more hesitant to give immediate bullet-feedback to a teamkiller who isn't listening to the verbal feedback. I assume others are impacted in a similar way. (Except for the sociopathic teamkillers, who see the joy of picking off unsuspecting blues as a thrill worth just about anything, including points.)

This was a knee-jerk reaction to a lackluster moderation capability. Not a bash on mods, this is the usual complaint I have about tools and policies. We were seeing more and more pottymouthed teamkilling noobs graduate to the big kid server, and threatening them with "dude you will get banned" got the response "no I won't" and you know what they are right. People hardly report on the blacklist any more, and the few players who are reported continue to roam free barely affected by a less than two day ban. It finally hit me when the Gen Jack returned from his break all wide-eyed and ready to do good, but gave up after a short time with the ineffective expiring bans.

At this point, I think the negative points are the wrong solution. Reverse the decision, and let the TASK people and others provide some feedback with teeth.

Oh as for friendly kills, I was hoping the negative points would discourage Close Shoulder Shooters but it didn't. I still am getting inadvertantly teamkilled, and I've done it no fewer times myself in a tough battle. As Wig points out, no ones cares about points in those firefights, and feeling bad for taking out a teammate is already penalty enough.

Manfred

as I said on my first reply to this thread, even before I re-implemented it:
"this is how it used to be and many complained about getting points removed because sometimes you team kill by mistake.

I don't mind to add it back, its a commented out chunk of code at this moment."

So I see history is repeating itself. You have to decide what it should do, i don't mind one way or another it was your call.

Just a misconception I saw: 1) You DO NOT get points for killing your own team, never did, never will. So team killing won't make you advance points. 2) The 5 minutes bans are world wide, not only on your zone. You can't get banned and change zones (it used to be possible, but not any more).

To me, although many seem to be bother with the idea, I don't care that much about team killing. After 2 kills (not 5, TWO kills), the server kicks you out. I hardly if ever see a game where team killing is a problem. Usually spawn killing is a problem since in Dogfight mode they just begin tanking around the area. But I never thought much of team killing aside from a minor annoyance.

zuperman wrote: as I said on my first reply to this thread, even before I re-implemented it:
"this is how it used to be and many complained about getting points removed because sometimes you team kill by mistake.

I don't mind to add it back, its a commented out chunk of code at this moment."

So I see history is repeating itself. You have to decide what it should do, i don't mind one way or another it was your call.

Just a misconception I saw: 1) You DO NOT get points for killing your own team, never did, never will. So team killing won't make you advance points. 2) The 5 minutes bans are world wide, not only on your zone. You can't get banned and change zones (it used to be possible, but not any more).

To me, although many seem to be bother with the idea, I don't care that much about team killing. After 2 kills (not 5, TWO kills), the server kicks you out. I hardly if ever see a game where team killing is a problem. Usually spawn killing is a problem since in Dogfight mode they just begin tanking around the area. But I never thought much of team killing aside from a minor annoyance.

Besides people like magentabaron, there is rarely teamkillers now. Even the noobs r playing by the rules. I do notice when iaccidentally teamkill a person i loose about 2 k if he goes down and 500 fot each bullet. Im not the type to care about points, they can be eatned bback. But u have those select few (magentabaron) that like to teamkill and do it just cause they want to. They could care less about points. They do it to ruin the game. Y? I have no idea. U can have so much joy when u play this game, i know i do. I go bout insane when im grounded from it of an update goes wrong. I cant live without it any more lol.

Here are my thoughts since the points have been adjusted.

I still think the negative points should be here. If you can get positive points for positive playing then negative for negative playing should be standard. There should be no benifit for friendly fire. Accidental or otherwise.

I agree with adjusting them down a bit. A friendly kill should equal an enemy kill. Friendly hanger kill equal an enemy kill.

Since the points reduction was implemented I have spanked a windows ghost, bombed 2 hangers, and accidentally shot several blues. My bad or my choice either way. Probably 4000 or 5000 lost.

The only situation where the negative points are a bummer is the spanking one. You just have to make the choice, as I did. Do I kill him and lose points or let him ride. I chose to kick his teeth in and pick my points up later.

The reason this came about in the first place:

Mod controls were changed. You can report till the cows come home and bans don't stick. Absolutely no teeth in a short ban. When Manfred was really on top of it and banning for several days or a week, That's when the system was working well. Why it was changed is beyond me. That's when the blacklist ment something. It's a joke to report now.

The auto ban has been and is useless. You take a 5 min in ONE server. You can instantly jump to two other options, ruin games in those and come back to the original. What's 5 min. in the first place? Even if it was in all servers, it is not enough time. Walk to the fridge get a drink, head out puff on a smoke, that is twice the time the ban lasts.

The whole system needs to be adjusted. Adjusted back to a time when it did actually work. These are the same exact reasons TASK was based and founded on BTW. Which is a broken way to self police this game. What else can you do?

I'm for this myself, maybe change the point system some. I probably lost many points on EE ORANGE last night before my 5 minute ban, they can be earned back however the best way to solve this, if it worked, would be a long long ban if you were reported.

However they now brag about using other accounts and will play no matter what. Since ZUPERMAN implemented this it seems that there are not as many incidences now. I really do not know for sure.

I don't know what the answer is, all I know is I love this game and the majority of the folks here and I see a bunch of bad noobs coming in with no values THAT THREATEN THIS GAME.

ZUPERMAN is in a very difficult situation as no matter what the man does he will not make some happy. The opinions of WIG are valid as well as opposing views, they all have merit in thier own way. Like i said I really don't know what the solution is, all i know is that these folks need to be stopped.

DISCUSSION IS GOOD.

Blue Max Young wrote:
The auto ban has been and is useless. You take a 5 min in ONE server. You can instantly jump to two other options, ruin games in those and come back to the original.

And again I repeat, this is not true. Try yourself, get banned 5 minutes and let me know if you can get in from another server. If you do, there is a problem in the system because you should not be able to. If you are banned, you are banned worldwide.

5 minutes sounds like a joke to many, but not so much to others. Remember that most people that get a 5 minutes ban is by accident. You got it, hey, i've got it too myself. I hit someone by mistake or drop the bomb too early and bang, banned. So more than 5 minutes is a pain in the butt. If you've received the emails I do, you'd know that those 5 minutes do make a huge difference on team killing.

So going back to the subject, we are argueeing stupid things. It doesn't matter 5 minutes, or whatever other system or if i can ban locally or globally or send someone early to sleep, if the whole point is: team killing is not a problem. What are we talking about? We want to spend time and resources on solving a problem that does not exist?

Joaquin, I definitely agree on a point reduction system for team-killing, bombing your own hangars and killing a zep when you are supposed to protect it.

The only complaint is that the point deduction is quite large for a friendly fire situation. If you could still keep the point deduction code in place, but please adjust the point penalty to equal it to what the point gain would be.

So if a blue plane shoots another blue plane, it should be no more than what that plane was worth if it would have been a red plane, same with hangars and the zeppelin. I think that would be a fair penalty for friendly fire situations.

Not sure with the new point system in place that you can code the penalty the same as the point gain on the higher the rank, the higher the point value is. If it is an easy fix just to do a general penalty across the board, but please adjust it to the way it was when you have a chance. I hate seeing respectable players losing a lot of points because of the players that find team-killing more fun the playing the game itself.

Thank you again for all your hard work and listening to our suggestions! It is very rare to see a developer such as yourself who truly cares about his creation the way you do!

Team killing is a problem. There would never be a blacklist thread or a TASK list if it were not a problem.

3000+ posts on the blacklist and 500+ on the TASK thread. Both are always on the front page of the forum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get the "you have bin banned for 5 minutes" sign pop up if you try to enter a game and you have bin banned by a mod for 2 days.

By the time you have written an email complaining about the ban, those 5 min would be long gone.

Give the mods freedom to ban for 4-5 days and if possible enable them to wright the reason for the ban and time left of the ban on the sign that pops up when they try to play.

I'm pretty sure we have already received an answer. Team killing isn't a problem, carry on. No point in taking it any further I suppose. I can accept that.

Zup most of the guys that are adding to this are "religious" DF players. Just trying to help with the things we see as a malfunction.

In relation or in regard to Max's point, team-killing was a habitual problem done by newer players that ranked into the higher ranked servers. There was purposeful team killing happening, but I have not seen it a lot lately. But then again, I usually play later in the evening US Eastern seaboard time.

The two that come to the forefront of my mind are EE Orange and Magentabaron as the most ruthless game ruiners. Especially EE Orange who will even switch sides to continue to do it in the same game.

So back to Max's point, Joaquin there is purposeful team-killing happening in the game, but I am not sure if they can switch to another server after being banned for 5 minutes in a different server.

It would be helpful to know if you are banned in Vimy for 5 minutes, if you can just by-pass the 5 minute ban and jump right away into a new game in Festubert.

If anyone is willing to take a 5 minute ban, preferably by bombing your own hangars. Please ask the players in the game that you would like to test this theory and see if they are willing to let you do this. If it becomes habitual, you will be hunted! Please let us know if this is possible.

Blue Max Young wrote: I'm pretty sure we have already received an answer. Team killing isn't a problem, carry on. No point in taking it any further I suppose. I can accept that.

Zup most of the guys that are adding to this are "religious" DF players. Just trying to help with the things we see as a malfunction.

Yes, Z has made his perception clear, that it's not a problem. I disagree that teamkilling is not a problem. Z, I believe you are seeing this from the perspective of a casual player, and not as a religious DF player as Max points out. Both casual and religious players will see the same raw percentage of teamkilling, but the religious player is greatly affected because the religious player "knows" the addiction of those "really great games" that come from playing and playing and playing. Those games get ruined by teamkillers INSTANTLY. The casual player sees every game as pretty much the same, sort of fun, nice shooting, no big deal. A teamkiller just makes them move on, no big deal.

But I would caution you to listen to the voices of the heavily addicted. The Parrotheads, Blue Max Youngs, and M4rtins are the greatest advocates of the game and community. These guys know what they are talking about.

Your call, however.

Manfred