This is not intended as a challenge. (okay, maybe just a little bit )
I intend this as a real question and I hope for real answers.


Question 1:

What is so exciting, thrilling, compelling , satisfying about straight up the middle valley of death head-on games?



Question 2:


Why are so many offended by droppers, campers, sneaks, etc?
(I'm not asking about spawn killing here.)

I for one have no problem with more than heads up, if the teams are even. By even I don't mean even numbers. I mean close to the same skills. We. All know a couple of good pilots can win against 4 or even 6. I think to many player come I. A game see 4 vrs 4 or 4vrs 3 and think everything is fair.

I think the best way to play is head on to start, if the game isn't moving after a few passes it's time to try something differnt. Most of you have played with me enough to know I'm a head on beat my head against the wall till it breaks. I only drop if the other team does I only sneak if the other team does and almost always try to let the red get off the ground.

Edit: after reading I didn't answer. Cause head on is what I have the best chance at scoring kills.

I like the challenge..only frustrated with droppers and campers is if I'm the only blue against 3 or more good pilots...

Yep.i.like.that challenge of.a good head on fight when all are carrying. It takes.team.work. i dont like.whn a pilot comes i.to the game and tell people that we have to fly witb him.as a cover fighter. Especially if qe have been going at the game for a while. Im.not telling anyone how to fly but have respect for those already in a game

I feel really bad for the dead horse that's about to get beat like a drum.

I picked up a new personal best in the 250 range this weekend with a variety of reds as they came and went, but without droppers and only the occasional sneak it was a really fun game.

I like to run high enough to maximize the target area and be in the clouds on approach, like 500-700 feet, as this makes the red easier to hit, especially those monowings, and if there is a blue below you you are "invisible" on the radar. Going higher than that is jsut plain wrong. Sneaking is the refuge of bad players and cheats, and persons of low morals, especially if they have numbers. Unless I'm doing it, then it's solid tactics.

Right long its a huge field with a large radar section you can get prety hight without leaving the radar and very wide to forcing the enemy to chase. The only time i go off radar is when thers a dropper taking advantage of bomb Ladin planes. Dropping prompts dropping then the reason for the bombing mission is lost as it turns into a dog fight. In the years i have been playing i have only seen one pilot actually provide cover for a bomber. He knows who is is and has brought me in during out numbered games. Ulike the pilot quark witch has somehow and suddenly become faster than zebra. He jumped into a game in progress where all were carrying a bomb and with no respect drops and takes advantage. Instead of going to find another game. Thats the type of dropper no one likes and thats the type of dropper that people complain about

I fly straight up the middle because the shortest distant between two points is a straight line. If I'm in a "BOMBING" mission, my mission is to bomb. I take off, then aim my plane towards the enemy hangars. If any reds show up on my radar, I shoot them.
Please understand that Hulk is not so smart, I only know how to smash the Reds and their hangars, or carriers. Hulk get dizzy, going in circles.

Q1 Nothing. I get a bit sick of that after a while and change direction. But pilots are just lazy. They can be stuffed to spend a few more sec climbing or off cutting. But in all honestly it is those things that make the game more real and enjoyable.

Q2 This "bad sportsmanship" thing is new. I have played here since 2012 and flying high was a beautiful thing. Last I checked we are all playing dogfight to fly planes not cars!!!

Pilot laziness is really getting to me.. where are the formations? Zup has made the game so it is easy to fly together. And like you said Mc my friend, flying direct gets boring! Come on guys lets mix it up a bit eh. Lets have the golden days back. They where fun.

May i ask.a.question. if your an accomplished piolt on a team.of five or six facing two pilots of equal caliber. Do you feel its ok to sneak out of radar or drop your bombs just to win a game knowing that your team has all the advantages in numbers even though the two pilots have a bomb and are making tough to get through. This is a question you need not ansewr here but only to yourself

No; sorry Darraxx, I forgot to say that. I agree with you 111% That would be inappropriate and poor sportsmanship. I would never do that. What I said only applies to a fair game.

( At risk of derailing here but this seems related...)



For those who mention use of dropping/sneaking/camping as okay when the game is even but not when one side is outnumbered:


-Are you asking the Reds to go easy on you because you are at a disadvantage?


-Is it better to prolong an uneven game? Or would it be better to finish it and go onto the next?




(Personally I'd ask no quarter (no guts, no glory?) and would rather fight my best and move onto the next game. What 'honor' is there in asking the Reds to back down a notch?)


Btw:

-What about the concept that sneaking is a gamble because you leave your base less protected, you are not another gun in the valley of death and all your time spent going around can be wasted by one attentive defender?

-What about the concept that a dropper is somewhat disadvantaged since he can't bomb?

-What about the fact that the instructions for the mission are "destroy enemy hangars" (or is it airport?) Not "shoot your way across while everyone is fully loaded and drop your bombs nowhere but on a the enemy hangars". After all, tanks do a lot of hangar bombing.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't drop unless the reds drop.. as a courtesy to others.. & if they do, then it's on like Donkey Kong! & they and their whole team pay the price for them dropping until I either run out of bullets or am shot down.

I don't like bombing missions really, and I HATE flying carrying my bomb, but to make them more enjoyable for those that love that down the Valley of Death head to head kill-fest I carry and do my best. (which ain't that great!) But I PRAY that someone drops the whole time I'm playing!

But it seems as though your questions are referring to that dreaded word "TACTICS"! How dare you consider using 'tactics' in a war game simulator! Nobody in a war uses tactics! *gasp!*

Honestly, if & when Squadron Wars ever comes into existence squadrons using them (tactics) will most likely win way more often than those that just play the same 'ol up the middle style of playing.

If anyone says those that 'sneak' are cowards or cheaters.. well let them say that. But zuperman made this game a nice big high & wide map for a reason.. I suggest you use it occasionally. There is nothing wrong with sneaking or my favorite "camping" which if I manage to push all the way through to the enemy base and actually bomb? You can bet your last dollar I am going to dance through the air over that base in joyful celebration! I'll let you up off the runway/carrier though.. and even drop your bomb or let you start shooting.. and THEN do my best to shoot you down!

(& even though I am not a fan of spawnkilling or dropping for no reason, neither of those things are against the rules.. and both can be considered tactics..)

Hmmm You have me thinking now..........................

Out gunned or not, in-game; I don't care what the reds do -unless there's spawn-killing of course.

So the only reason I don't do the above when I'm on the stronger side - now that I think about it - is because I don't want to get people mad. Maybe I'll have to change the way I play and not care if people get mad.

But get this: if its 6v2, and I go around or above, the game will be over before I even get there anyway.

I would never ask the Reds to "go easy", as a matter of fact, I would ask them to do their very best. I don't ever want an easy game, that would make it boring. To tell the truth, I want one good teammate, and 6 opponents. That would be my ideal game. Let me find my groove, and game on. Those are my favorite games. Tactic away, please. Then die by the hands of the dumb green one.

[NLR] McFate wrote: ( At risk of derailing here but this seems related...)



For those who mention use of dropping/sneaking/camping as okay when the game is even but not when one side is outnumbered:


-Are you asking the Reds to go easy on you because you are at a disadvantage?


-Is it better to prolong an uneven game? Or would it be better to finish it and go onto the next?




(Personally I'd ask no quarter (no guts, no glory?) and would rather fight my best and move onto the next game. What 'honor' is there in asking the Reds to back down a notch?)


Btw:

-What about the concept that sneaking is a gamble because you leave your base less protected, you are not another gun in the valley of death and all your time spent going around can be wasted by one attentive defender?

-What about the concept that a dropper is somewhat disadvantaged since he can't bomb?

-What about the fact that the instructions for the mission are "destroy enemy hangars" (or is it airport?) Not "shoot your way across while everyone is fully loaded and drop your bombs nowhere but on a the enemy hangars". After all, tanks do a lot of hangar bombing.

Despite the dead horse approach, IMHO this is the post of the month. Luv ya, McFate.
And to the whinners: read the mission title and remember: this is just a freaking mobile game.

Thanks for the input everyone!

I know that this is an old tired issue but I couldn't find a thread dealing with this particular question that wasn't a complaint/bash thread. I've been working on an index of the "rules" of dogfight in an effort to make it easier to find old related posts.

It's called:

The Unofficial Dogfight 'Law' Library

It is always going to be available in the NLR Squad section both to keep it easy to find but also so I can edit and reorganize the thread as it develops. I'm going to go put a link in for this thread. Please post any links or quotes you feel should be on such a list. Your input is helpful largely because although I've tried to include a variety of perspectives, I can only share what has caught my attention.



@ tBiggs: "because I don't want to get people mad." Same here my friend. Actually I would not sneak on a heavily outnumbered team either. I rarely play as aggressively as I would prefer because... well, people get upset. Is it just too challenging for them to have to think strategically? The way that so many have said "dropping is not a tactic" leads me to believe that it really is beyond some people.

Maybe the "vision" of Dogfight can include servers for casual games and others for knock-down-drag-out brawls. Until that happens (if ever) there's bound to be more drama. The implementation of "Team Chat" was first suggested on the forum 3 1/2 years ago. I wonder what the future will bring.

Anyway, the thing that got me started on defining these issues in the first place was being accused of "unfair play" when I was already playing "courteously". (I frequently get blamed for dropping when I haven't.) Then there are times when I do drop (to get a camper, a tank...etc) and then oh my! Lol.

*[M]VonHulk wrote: I would never ask the Reds to "go easy", as a matter of fact, I would ask them to do their very best. I don't ever want an easy game, that would make it boring. To tell the truth, I want one good teammate, and 6 opponents. That would be my ideal game. Let me find my groove, and game on. Those are my favorite games. Tactic away, please. Then die by the hands of the dumb green one.

Now that is the spirit!

That is the kind of game you would remember and it would be an awesome one to see from either side!

[NLR] McFate wrote:

*[M]VonHulk wrote: I would never ask the Reds to "go easy", as a matter of fact, I would ask them to do their very best. I don't ever want an easy game, that would make it boring. To tell the truth, I want one good teammate, and 6 opponents. That would be my ideal game. Let me find my groove, and game on. Those are my favorite games. Tactic away, please. Then die by the hands of the dumb green one.

Now that is the spirit!

That is the kind of game you would remember and it would be an awesome one to see from either side!

And my least favorite ending are when two good pilots have scratched and clawed and defended their base and are down to their last hangar after waves of planes and tanks have been nibbling away and then when the two of you are out front on hamburger hill hammering three tanks and to supporting planes, low on ammo and trialing smoke, some two week noob, who won't even be around in two more weeks, drops from high and ends a great game and starts "jajaja".

Fug that guy. I'll follow that guy in every game, across every server and make his life so miserable that he quits this game to play bubble witch.

Longrifle wrote:
Fug that guy. I'll follow that guy in every game, across every server and make his life so miserable that he quits this game to play bubble witch.

I hear you, Long. Frustrating sure.

"That guy" happened to be my 11 year old son in one game. I actually doubt that it was such a dire game as 2 vs the world. But he did sneak in a bomb and get berated and trashed on by some upper level prick. Remember "Snowbum"? My youngest son didn't play much after that. In fact due to the be drama mostly coming from "established players" neither of my sons, who started playing at the same time I did, play any more. (Yes, I do have a grudge against high-level whiners.)

I've seen many instances of shaming over someone's hurt pride that have become really nasty crap instead of just taking it like a big boy and moving on. I know, regarding my kids, If they can't take the heat.... Well, they aren't in the kitchen anymore. And just to be clear: the heat had nothing to do with being out skilled. I wonder how many other players leave over the same stuff. Last time I read a bunch of the reviews on Kindle there were a few where people complained about upper level players telling them what to do. (Not in a constructive way)

So, what is the "honorable" thing to do? Shame someone who has not broken any rules but pissed you off essentially by outsmarting you (outnumbered or not) or to do your best and move on to the next game?

If you want to see a constructive attitude and tactical advice of how to handle a severely lopsided game (including sneaks) check out " Tips for the lopsided game from MäX ". I put a link in "The Unofficial Dogfight 'Law' Library."

I've written before about two of my most memorable games. Both were 2 blues vs the world. (Occasionally 3 blues but mostly just the 2 of us) One was me and panchin, the other was me and my older son Cat of Doom. We played with our backs to the wall, dropping sneaking, getting whined at by the 5-6 reds. The neat thing is that our sneaker was able to intercept the red sneakers while our dropper/chaser took care of the valley of death. Panchin and I lost but we did get some hangars. Cat and I won. Tactics? Anyone who thinks dropping can't be a tactic is an idiot uncreative.


Team chat is going to make it easier for teams to coordinate. Good/bad/whatever, it will be interesting.

Sincerely,

McFate

In that game, all were having a blast and when the offender snuck one of two remaining hangars he was warned by seven pilots not to spoil the party, not just one or two of the opposing team. Despite those pleas, he did it again and again until he finally got the hit. Someone who lives to spoil the fun will always get a mark on their back by me, man, woman, child or small furry animal.

The truth is six wil always beat two, and if the six did no more than come in like the spokes of a wheel in a swirl the two can't defend in time. Accomplish the mission, check, big fun for all? Eh. When you get one of those rare games where quailty pilots are having a blast and the outnumbered ones are hanging on by the skin of their teeth, having a cherry ruin the fun isn't simply a blow to pride. Everyone with half a tactical brain knows how to defend against sneakers, but when down by five or more you simply can't be everywhere, and everyone knows it. I could end a lot of games but don't, as it would spoil the fun. I threw myself against Max and Archangel many times when they were paired with a midlevel pilot and stood against five or six, when I could have taken the hangars simply by hovering out of radar range and waiting for them to start rolling up a score on the all seeing info window, which tells you they are advancing away from the base.

I also wasn't a jerk to this guy in chat, other than commenting that was a lame way to end a great game. Once he showed me his style though, I showed him mine; not the one I wear as a veil in civilized games (NS, GJ GG, WTG, Nice one chap), but the dark one, born in battle to a chorous of screams and bathed in blood that I save for special occasions.

Toodles.

Longrifle wrote:
The truth is six wil always beat two,

That is not a fact.

So you do want people to go easy on you when you are outnumbered?
If they don't meet you in the valley of death they are dishonorable no matter who they are?

"Established players" who are already in a game get to tell everyone else the right way to play a game?

Are bombing games reserved just for those who like the valley of death?

Funny thing about that, especially with the current server set up is that the protracted stalemate bombing games go on sometimes for hours. This means that you are far more likely to get a bombing game when you spawn in rather than a zep/ctc/ or df. So your way or the high-way? Listen to the "elders" or GTFO? A lower level must play the valley of death or be shamed? Sure they can just leave the game to look for another but again, the bombing games often take up the servers because they go on so long. Also, Zup has said many times now that people going in and out of games and trying to switch sides contributes to lag and imbalances.

It's funny how the 'established players' can be the biggest wimps.



I'm done with my rant. Lol.

Anyone else who would like to say why they like head-on only is welcome to post unmolested.

[NLR] McFate wrote:

Longrifle wrote:
The truth is six wil always beat two,

That is not a fact.

So you do want people to go easy on you when you are outnumbered?
If they don't meet you in the valley of death they are dishonorable no matter who they are?

"Established players" who are already in a game get to tell everyone else the right way to play a game?

Are bombing games reserved just for those who like the valley of death?

Funny thing about that, especially with the current server set up is that the protracted stalemate bombing games go on sometimes for hours. This means that you are far more likely to get a bombing game when you spawn in rather than a zep/ctc/ or df. So your way or the high-way? Listen to the "elders" or GTFO? A lower level must play the valley of death or be shamed? Sure they can just leave the game to look for another but again, the bombing games often take up the servers because they go on so long. Also, Zup has said many times now that people going in and out of games and trying to switch sides contributes to lag and imbalances.

It's funny how the 'established players' can be the biggest wimps.



I'm done with my rant. Lol.

Anyone else who would like to say why they like head-on only is welcome to post unmolested.

Six beating two is not a given but that's the way to bet. I can count on one hand how many times I've been on one side or the other of that equation.

As for your established players telling others what to do line, that's a little bit of pot calling kettle black, as I remember when I started and you were one of the Misfits that wanted to circus and goof off how many times I was told to "stand down" and observe the "truce", or how many times I was asked to observe a truce for your evals, or leave a game where an impromptu squad battle was trying to form. I also remember the howling when someone didn't observe the requests.

I've said many time that if there ever is a squad wars, that I'm forming a squad of scoundrels who will drop the gloves and play to win, but I believe in squad wars like I believe in the Eater Bunny. I've been a tactician playing for keeps, I come to here to relax as there is no real incentive to "win", my incentive is to have good games, win or lose.

Longrifle wrote: As for your established players telling others what to do line, that's a little bit of pot calling kettle black, as I remember when I started and you were one of the Misfits that wanted to circus and goof off how many times I was told to "stand down" and observe the "truce", or how many times I was asked to observe a truce for your evals, or leave a game where an impromptu squad battle was trying to form. I also remember the howling when someone didn't observe the requests.

(Not ranting here. )

Yea, it didn't set right with me either. It did create hard feelings, didn't it? Now days when I circus fly I don't mind if someone wants to try to shoot me. It's more fun to try to get them to crash while chasing. Now days I just say "I'm not shooting" or "I'm not shooting unless shot at" and leave it to them what they want to do.

Live and learn.

Longrifle wrote:
I've said many time that if there ever is a squad wars, that I'm forming a squad of scoundrels who will drop the gloves and play to win

Well then Longrifle you should just join The Lafayette Escadrille as you just described us and our 'style' of playing if & when Squadron Wars becomes a reality..

[NLR] McFate wrote:

Longrifle wrote: As for your established players telling others what to do line, that's a little bit of pot calling kettle black, as I remember when I started and you were one of the Misfits that wanted to circus and goof off how many times I was told to "stand down" and observe the "truce", or how many times I was asked to observe a truce for your evals, or leave a game where an impromptu squad battle was trying to form. I also remember the howling when someone didn't observe the requests.

(Not ranting here. )

Yea, it didn't set right with me either. It did create hard feelings, didn't it? Now days when I circus fly I don't mind if someone wants to try to shoot me. It's more fun to try to get them to crash while chasing. Now days I just say "I'm not shooting" or "I'm not shooting unless shot at" and leave it to them what they want to do.

Live and learn.

Not any hard feelings on my part; again, the point is to allow people to play the way they want as a collective and not disrupt the fun because being the fun police is what trips your trigger. It goes back to the same old scenario; six or seven of us are having a good time playing one way, not for wins or kills but just because it's fun, and somebody "drops in" (SWIDT?) and spoils it because they can, and because that's how they get their jollies. If it's free for all and all bets are off, and there are waves of sneakers, fine, but why ruin someone else's fun and end their game, knowing that they won't be able to reassemble in those teams again??

If I spawn in and six guys are trying to land on a carrier antenna, I'm either going to play along or leave, not follow one of them and wait until he just about has it, then smoke him as he's teetering on the verge of being the first at accomplishing the goal. Your quote "leave it to them to do what the want to do" = my point.

Zeeb, if it ever comes to squad wars I want to collect the rogues and ruffians, campers and spawners and droppers and sneaks and play all out villian, without mercy, for death and hatred. Not just tactics, but pure outlaw. Somebody has to be the bad guys.

But the good guys always win.

I think.what long is saying is. Is it to much for a pilot just jumping into a game and doing whatever he dam well wants. Instead of trying to play the way the game is going. It all comes down to just a little bit of respect for the game thats going on at any particular time. I jump into games and see whats going on first before i get into it all the way. You say fly the way you want well every game is different and have their own challenges for that one game. Everyone can have fun if everyone shows some respect for the game and pilots in it. As always is said if you dont like that game move on. Theres six servers and plenty of different style games. Find the one that fits your style dont just jump into a game and tell everyone there hey this is how it is now

I can only remember one time in my year of playing spawning into a game and was advised of the style of game play. It was no big deal and I left. That was then however and the game itself is different nowadays with the players waiting to play. From all the discussion wouldn't it be prudent for folks who are in the game to inform newly spawned players of the "rules" (so to speak) of the current game, especially given the various ages, styles, and maturity levels of the community as a whole? If someone waits, what? 7 minutes? To play and they get into a game which has different rules than the mission....? Dunno... tough call and one I cannot speak to because I can just leave and enter a different server/game immediately. Not everyone can do that and those folks share our addiction too.

Granted I haven't been around as long as Longrifle and McFate and have not even come close to their level of gameplay, therefore am more likely to be happy with the new players and the different styles, or tolerant of it at the least. My games are "ruined" more by folks who spawnkill, team kill, or are potty mouthed than by the various tactics and styles mentioned early in this thread.

Oh but I would be upset if someone came into a game where we were trying to land on the antenna and killed us when we were most vulnerable as described by Longrifle, but I guarantee I would have let them know what we were doing as soon as they spawned in.

I swear I tried to keep my nose away from this, but I cant help.

McFate, if I was you, I would stop trying to make people see that this is just a freaking game. I would stop trying to make some people see that NOT EVERY PLAYER has enough time to play 200 kills missions, and because of that, some players have the right to enter a mission, make their moves to WIN THE MISSION, turn off the phone screen and go to bed. I would stop trying to make some people realise that nobody is forced to carry a bomb, nor to fly on a straight-line-from-base-to-base. I would stop trying to make some people realise that this game is meant to be played ANYWAY YOU WANT, provided you don't kill blues and don't call bad names in the chat. I would stop trying to make some people realise that, if they want to play the same stupid mission for hours and hours and hours and hours, they should ask Zuperman for a private server, what would perfectly be feasible... enough money provided.

This soapbox reminds me of a game I entered almost two years ago - if I am not wrong, during a certain night when I was tired, with a freaking kidney pain, and after witnessing several minutes of useless fight, I figured I was of no help; then I decided to avoid the bullet-prone-stupid-middle-yellow-brick-road-between-bases, made my long, boring way to the south hangars, and boom... Just to read some not-so-nice comments on my screen, written by some of the most known and respected players of this comunity (one is no more, by the way). From that point, I realised how much idiocy resides on some "famous" players's minds. Some of them, months later, even quoted that game to suggest I was lying about my kidney pain. What is the point of my post: the constant JUDGEMENT at which the players are thrown by the "well known/respected players". As if I needed some lie, some reason or excuse to stop doing the way they want, as if I needed some explanation to fly and to play THE WAY I WANT... pfff...

McFate, believe me: this discussion is useless, fruitless. Let the "rule-defecators" whine. Let them judge you. It wont change your life. Not for better, at least.

Another case I remember right now, that can be used as a last picture to ths boring post: Some months ago, the "hated" Bubi was red. After I (stupidly) asked him to stop dropping, he wrote on the screen some of the wisest words I ever read on the game chat: "I play to help my team, not yours". Plain simple, huh? But quite wise, given the stupid circumstances that (still) surrounds some rotten subjects on this game/forum.

That phrase made me think. A lot. I didn't change my play style after that: I still don't like to drop, I still prefer the heat of the battles on midmap (unless when I am not in the mood); but now, I see that the sneakers, the droppers and the campers are simply doing the very same thing I am doing: playing a mobile GAME, most of times during their bus-travel from school to home, during a "wait-the-wife-in-the-parking-car", or alike.

By the way, time for me to go bed. I promisse that you wont read a single boring line from me on the next 30 days.

I was just in a game with a player named Case IH something. Invisible. BOMBING hangars. Should I be happy that he was having fun? He was on my team, I did not want to win like that. He is a ToolBag. He was asked (politely) to leave and come back. It was not meant to be, he won the game by picking off the hangars one by one. I'm sure glad he had fun. He was 1-7, I was 70-20. That game sucked.