I would love to know and if not put this to a vote. Is spawnkilling a bannable offense? If not, why wouldn't it be? It takes everything you fight for on this game, honor, dignity, courage and throws it out the damn window. To continuously allow this to take place should be a bannable offense. I'm not mounting an attack, so if anyone here posts an attack, that should be deleted and pmed. This is a question directed to the Mods in hopes of a vote or resolution. If this is widely considered by most squadrons an atrocious deformation of this game, why shouldn't it be to the Mods? Next considerations should be camping and dropping, but we will leave it at spawnkilling for now.

I'll respond on the spawnkilling, from the perspective of an ex-mod and a player. I hope that's relevant. A year+ or so ago, spawnkilling was frowned upon as game-ruining by Zuperman. He was so disturbed by spawnkilling that he added a timed immunity after takeoff for certain player levels. I don't think he's changed his stance on this.

But while I was a mod, we generally didn't ban for it, because it was so hard to prove, and so easy to deny. Unless you had a movie showing shots nailing the plane with wheels touching, you couldn't really prove it convincingly enough (hardly anything is proven 100%, but proof just had to pass the Debatable Test - and spawnkilling was tough to prove to that level). On the other hand, spawnkilling from a tank was very clear, very provable, and very bannable.

The current mods can answer whether they consider spawnkilling bannable or not.

Manfred

I think that it depends on the situation. If you are talking about a evenly matched game with veteran players on both sides, then spawn kills are more acceptable, than in a 7:1 game where one player is constantly pinned down by the other team while bombs are dropped freely with no threat of the enemy defending. Basically "spawnkill bullying"

Manfred is quite correct and Jason makes some excellent points.

If a player contacts me with a report of a teamkilling incident it's relatively black and white. Screen caps and/or witnesses are enough to support a ban after the fact. The reputation and reliability of the reporting player often factor into the decision. Needless to say, if a Moderator is in a game when teamkilling occurs a ban can be imposed on the spot.

As Manfred has said, spawnkilling is tougher to prove. If proven, I consider it bannable. What I'm inclined to do is to try to establish premeditation. We all know the endless argument over the distinction between spawnkilling for its own sake and spawnkilling as suppression. So, from a tank, always bannable. From a plane, dependent upon circumstances. On foot...I just kicked a player who spawnkilled me while standing alongside the airstrip as a soldier/sniper. I might just as easily have decided to ban him instead. Sometimes the traffic cop lets you off with a warning, sometimes he tickets you for exactly the same violation. I honestly believe it's a better game on the whole when sanctions for stuff like this are left to the discretion of the Mods. The hard, fast, ironclad rules some players call for would have a dehumanizing effect on the game. Once a Mod is involved that should ensure as much or little disciplinary action as is deemed appropriate.

Camping is, in my view, a zero-ban non-infraction. If the camper is spawnkilling, different infraction, different response. If all he/she is doing is hanging around a base, but is offering opposing players the chance to engage, (letting them get airborne, letting them begin evasive maneuvering, etc) it becomes a matter of relative skill and barely differs from air to air engagement anywhere else on the map...other than in the sense that it makes perfect sense to try to pester opponents when your bomber teammates are en route.

Dropping is much the same. I'm unmoved by complaints. It's a logical tactic in a number of situations. If the team strengths are imbalanced all bets are off. With even teams, if reds are on the offensive sheer momentum plays a huge role in how a game's outcome will swing. I don't hesitate to drop when I know it'll get me to an encounter at midfield whereas hanging onto the bomb will mean the red team repeatedly at my door. Naturally, the ideal circumstance is to blast 'em back to their base, but when that doesn't work I bomb-dump, unapologetically. The most common word in my vocabulary lately is "lag". When the reds (or, potentially, I) lag so hard that nothing I throw at them head-on hits, I'll take a string of ugly lag-kills then start dropping so as to be able to get in close and chase. If the object is to do more to benefit my teammates than to benefit the reds, oftentimes that purpose is best served by covering fellow blues rather than offering up my face to be covered in lag-ridden lead. Again, as with the camping, if the playing field is allowed to remain level, i.e. letting reds fly and fight when camping, and when dropping letting reds have the option to do the same, (an option everyone always has) all's fair. These tactics are no more bannable than is going for altitude and dive bombing.

Now then, if you'd like to talk about establishing the bannability of that miserable bloody stand-there-sniping-planes-as-a-soldier-instead-of-getting-into-a-tank gimmick that's suddenly so friggin' trendy, I'm 102% down for that discussion.

I think that a lot of these complaints could be eliminated by the addition of a fuel feature to the planes. Enough fuel, or timer for a plane with bomb to fly across the map and back safely with a bit of time to dogfight as necessary. Over stay your welcome, you crash, there goes some of you kdr some are so obsessed with. Not the same war but the tactic applies, when bombers in WW2 were flying missions, over europe they only had fighter cover for part of the way then the short legged fighters had to turn back.. you did not have fighters flying to the target and" covering the bombers" til they get there. It would not stop all of the abuses, but it would limit them much more than letting a player hang around over a base until his ammo runs out.

I really like your ideal TR, I would add one detail, if you run out of gas it would count as either 2 or 3 deaths.

Really good ideal

Weather[M]an wrote: I would love to know and if not put this to a vote. Is spawnkilling a bannable offense? If not, why wouldn't it be? It takes everything you fight for on this game, honor, dignity, courage and throws it out the damn window. To continuously allow this to take place should be a bannable offense. I'm not mounting an attack, so if anyone here posts an attack, that should be deleted and pmed. This is a question directed to the Mods in hopes of a vote or resolution. If this is widely considered by most squadrons an atrocious deformation of this game, why shouldn't it be to the Mods? Next considerations should be camping and dropping, but we will leave it at spawnkilling for now.

No way. Spawnkilling, camping, and dropping are, to me, a part of the game. I like the game how it is.

Spawnkilling. I'll often be coming in with my bomb with my sights fixed on the runway just in case the enemy decides to throttle up. If I don't kill him, there is a good chance he will shoot me down. It's up to the grounded plane to decide whether he will sit with his brakes on and let the bomber take his hangars, or to time his takeoff and potentially stop the bomber with a small risk of being spawnkilled.

Dropping. There are many situations where the right move is to drop. Do I have any sneakers? I might need the extra speed to catch them and get back to defend in time. How outgunned am I? How many enemy planes are knocking on my door? Are any tanks in range? I might need to drop my bomb so I can reach them faster. Every second counts. Perhaps I have a teammate trying to go for a high sneak. I might have to drop to meet the enemy sooner, providing my teammate with time to gain enough altitude so they don't show up on enemy radar. Maybe the enemy has dropped, too. I will probably need to extra maneuverability to have a chance at getting him. Sometimes the difference between winning and losing is a matter of seconds. The bomb release button exists for a reason, and I like to use it to my advantage.

Camping, as well, has it's place in the game. Escape from an enemy base is not always possible, and every once in a while, air to air combat will happen above or near the enemy base.

If you want all of this banned, then shooting at enemies entering or leaving you base should be bannable too.
I'd rather play a chess match than a game of checkers.

Cricket wrote:

Weather[M]an wrote: I would love to know and if not put this to a vote. Is spawnkilling a bannable offense? If not, why wouldn't it be? It takes everything you fight for on this game, honor, dignity, courage and throws it out the damn window. To continuously allow this to take place should be a bannable offense. I'm not mounting an attack, so if anyone here posts an attack, that should be deleted and pmed. This is a question directed to the Mods in hopes of a vote or resolution. If this is widely considered by most squadrons an atrocious deformation of this game, why shouldn't it be to the Mods? Next considerations should be camping and dropping, but we will leave it at spawnkilling for now.

No way. Spawnkilling, camping, and dropping are, to me, a part of the game. I like the game how it is.

Spawnkilling. I'll often be coming in with my bomb with my sights fixed on the runway just in case the enemy decides to throttle up. If I don't kill him, there is a good chance he will shoot me down. It's up to the grounded plane to decide whether he will sit with his brakes on and let the bomber take his hangars, or to time his takeoff and potentially stop the bomber with a small risk of being spawnkilled.

Dropping. There are many situations where the right move is to drop. Do I have any sneakers? I might need the extra speed to catch them and get back to defend in time. How outgunned am I? How many enemy planes are knocking on my door? Are any tanks in range? I might need to drop my bomb so I can reach them faster. Every second counts. Perhaps I have a teammate trying to go for a high sneak. I might have to drop to meet the enemy sooner, providing my teammate with time to gain enough altitude so they don't show up on enemy radar. Maybe the enemy has dropped, too. I will probably need to extra maneuverability to have a chance at getting him. Sometimes the difference between winning and losing is a matter of seconds. The bomb release button exists for a reason, and I like to use it to my advantage.

Camping, as well, has it's place in the game. Escape from an enemy base is not always possible, and every once in a while, air to air combat will happen above or near the enemy base.

If you want all of this banned, then shooting at enemies entering or leaving you base should be bannable too.
I'd rather play a chess match than a game of checkers.

DAVY says, on a bombing run i shoot and keep shooting until I bomb, THAT TO ME IS NOT SPAWN KILLING, however once i bomb i leave to head back home with the following exceptions.

1---if A red flys in front of me while leaving than I might take him down or if he is behind me midfield than I might turn around to get him.

2---on a zep game and the zep is near red base you almost have to spawnkill to win


3---on a bomb carrier I will hang off in the distance, NOT FIRING, waiting for a red to shoot me down so I can tank

The other day I had a well know player, I wont name him nor the squadron, he had me pinned to the carrier, I could not even move and he kept getting his kills. Absolutely disgusting. I'm proud of my kills and I hope my reputation for a clean game is always high. You take players like wig, bs, max and many others and they all have good fair gameplay with the highest of reputations.

The other day i made it real hard for a known dropper until he quit, I was real happy, my dogfight skills are not good but improving. There will be a day when I get good enough that I will hunt certain folks and give them payback. For some reason dogfight is very difficult for me to master but I will master it. However once i master it i will still play a clean game until I need to dogfight.

[M]bzerkbzerk wrote: You missed the point here. Camping in a 5v1 for example. Now you are the lone player and one has gotten through, bombed your hangers, perfectly fine. He takes you down in the process, however holds you on the runway with no incoming bombers. Repeatedly shoots you as you barely get wheels up, no chance to evade and fight. Again no incoming bombers.

In that situation, I'll do my best to not give him the chance to shoot me down. I wouldn't release my brakes until he passed me and his sights were off me. I'd time it with my throttle and brakes to give me the best shot. You say there is no chance.. I don't believe that. And bombers are always incoming. Sometimes it's best to just wait until they get close before you takeoff. If you keep taking off and are getting shot down over and over again, maybe it's time to think of a different course of action. Surrender is another option. Leaving and finding a new game is another.

[M]bzerkbzerk wrote: If you consider this acceptable, then it should be no surprise to you when the newer player whom you are doing this to uses vulgar language in the chat bar out of frustration. Ironically, you then rib said player, however the damage is done and there is no return for this player.

Game ends, and screen shots of the vulgarity end up on the blacklist and another new player to Dogfight has just been muted or banned by a veteran player.

I have seen this and witnessed the aftermath of these actions. Self destruct of that potentially new player becoming a part of this forum ruined by above example.

I'm not sure who you're referring to.

It happened to me a lot when I first started. I'm still here.

Davy and Cricket are pretty much saying the same thing.

Which is why it's situational. If someone feels a player is being ABUSIVE, and simply kill-mongering without advancing their team's game, them take some screenshots and complain. Players have the ability to defend themselves on blacklist. Complaints that stick will also stick to the offending player's reputation. Complaints that don't stick will reduce the cred of the complaining player.

As for WHAT can fall into the category of abusive, see Wig's Open Letter From Mod thread. Sounds like a good start. Assuming he doesn't get banned for expressing that. (That was a joke.) [Everyone laughing nervously.]

Doesn't that work?

Manfred

Edit: Well maybe they aren't quite saying the same thing. One says it's all fair, with a few exceptions. The other says the following things are never fair, but here are a few exceptions. That gray area in the middle is what the Moderators will exercise judgment over. Yah?

Too me I only ban spawn killers if they do it with a tank and in some extreme cases. Normally while I'm in game and I see a spawn killer taking advantage of a newer player by spawn killing. Then i will ban him/her....If they are evenly stacked games, then some spawn killing is okay (i ONLY DO IT WHEN I AM BOMBING WHICH IS NOT TOO OFTEN BECAUSE IM A DROPPING CAMPER LOL)...I don't care if I'm spawn killed at all and It does not bother me in the least. I learned how to handle spawn killers others should learn too. This game has so many different ways you can play. Enjoy the game for what it is and play how you see fit as long as it isn't deemed game ruining and you are helping the team. Stop the whining(believe it or not, Most of the whining comes from advanced and older players) also report the abusers on the blacklist thread. All of our game skills can be used to work together. I'm not even sure why I am even writing this. This topic keeps coming up time and time again and it's kinda old hat...

T.R. wrote: I think that a lot of these complaints could be eliminated by the addition of a fuel feature to the planes. Enough fuel, or timer for a plane with bomb to fly across the map and back safely with a bit of time to dogfight as necessary. Over stay your welcome, you crash, there goes some of you kdr some are so obsessed with. Not the same war but the tactic applies, when bombers in WW2 were flying missions, over europe they only had fighter cover for part of the way then the short legged fighters had to turn back.. you did not have fighters flying to the target and" covering the bombers" til they get there. It would not stop all of the abuses, but it would limit them much more than letting a player hang around over a base until his ammo runs out.

I'd take it a step further, but I think fuel management should be a part of the game. There should also be a decent reward for returning to base. Sooner or later, a camper or spawnkiller will overstay his welcome & be killed. If there was incentive to get home, people might not stay over a base so long & will embrace the term RTB. It would also give more realism. As it stands, there's really no incentive to get home at all other than an internal acceptance of what constitutes completing a successful sortie, so this might give that incentive. You get 50 points for landing in a chute. Why shouldn't you get substantially more for landing? It'd be fun preventing spawnkillers from landing too. Of course if we're talking realism, the head-on shots would go away too. In the real world, they're the hardest to make (mentally figuring angle, ballistics, aircraft speed, etc.) & you open yourself up to death. Shooting from the 6 or off-angle should be the norm.

I think the whole conversation is one of intent, as wig eluded to. Some players do nothing but sk & camp (dogfight missions have gotten so bad I call them spawnfights now) & these are the ones we're really talking about, although sometimes the appearance of camping can't be helped. I've bombed a base & stayed over it because reds keep taking off & I have to fight there in an attempt to stay alive & get AWAY from their base (no sk though). I call out the spawnkillers & always target them first, especially in spawnkill games when they're tanking at the runway. I will drop to kill them, then land & reload. Of course firing while on a bomb run should be ok since the player can fire almost immediately after spawning, especially at the southern base in btb games (why isn't the northern base oriented N-S too because of the slight southern advantage, or both bases E-W?). I often let the red fire first, then kill him if I can.

It's pretty sad, but the situation here isn't the worst I've seen by far. Years ago, I played Air Warrior online (similar to Aces High), which had squad rankings based on kills alone. There was a generally respected & seasoned squad in the Korean theater that did nothing but sk as their main focus. Most outright sucked at dogfighting, but wouldn't engage me if I called them to fight because they didn't care, as it wasn't their mission, knew I'd kill them, & they really just didn't care. Of course they were always on top & patted themselves on the back for it. One difference in AW was that you could pick your spawn base from several & they couldn't cover them all (could work here too, but the limited number of players allowed might limit its positive effects...AW might have 50 or more players on a map at once. Maybe a couple of bases with the targets located elsewhere?). Selective spawning would surely help in spawnkill missions.

In the end, you have to just deal with it & report violators as you can.

That's my .02, but I wrote more than I thought I would, so it's really .03. I think more freely on the pot...

Limiting gas and/or ammo has been discussed multiple times and there are reasons they won't work. Fuel= flight time and you need to have enough to get to target and back with some reserve for fighting. If you think about it it won't deter a Spawnkiller as he doesn't plan on returning anyway. It just would put a timer on him that probably would match your average killers time. Limiting ammo has similar problems. Both also limit a regular players decisions/options.
Spawn killing is only an obvious game ruining experience in certain instances. Tank/soldier at port. Dogfight games when you have multiple planes doing it. Staying at base and continually flaring out behind and pinning planes for no reason (debatable).
I usually kick the player rather than ban. It has to be totally obvious that a higher rank player is pinning mostly lower players. I have kicked players in the past with less evidence and regretted it.
My suggestion may be to hard to implement but I think it would help. Minimal points for shooting an enemy taking off for say 10 seconds and no kill recorded. Only those doing it for "Strategic" reasons would bother doing it.

Edit: It may give the player who is always blasting you from behind as you try and escape a reason to let you go and focus on the incoming. Think about it. Wouldn't you let a Ace leave rather than risk him "Strategically" shooting you into the pavement for trying it? It would make the whole choice about being a jerk and spawnkilling a personal one not a points one. Yes we will still have the jerks. Not as many. And there were jerks in WW I.

If there's reds over the base when I spawn in, I keep the brakes on and "look around" with the screen to time a full throttle departure, sling to side and let the bomb fly, and put them in the mix.

A couple weeks ago, in one of my favorite dogfight moments ever, I spawned in with five reds over the base and a series of smoldering hangars, with one left standing. All the blues had apparently bailed, and the reds had three low ranks and two high ones. Once they saw the red dot on the radar they all went for me. Screen full of tracers, I did the above, found a gap, got tight on the back of the first noob in a monowing and started the furball. One after another I took each down in turn, with the high ranks trying to kill me the entire time, and finally dusted them too. Took a few minutes, but after I splashed the last one I told them they forgot their tent. I met them in the middle and ran through them again, and they started leaving, with more blues replacing them, and won that game with none of the five campers there at the end.

You are correct Longrifle. It is probably one of the best parts of the game for an experienced pilot.

Thanks guys!

I'm really hoping the rest of the moderators will chime in too. The reason this keeps coming up is that spawn killing is extremely abrasive and there has been no "official" word on how or even whether it should be handled by the mods.

The common points that discussions about spawnkilling always come to are:

-Some situations call for it strategically.
-Some feel it is fair among seasoned players while others do not.
-It is abusive to newer players.
-It is complicated and difficult to prove largely because it is "fair" in some circumstances and not in others.

This leaves a lot of room for argument, accusations and whining. The best situation is when it happens while a moderator is in game. Otherwise it is hear-say. It seems that it is still useful for people to post their complaints about perceived abuse so mods and other players can get a heads-up to watch out for the worst offenders. Forearmed with previous complaints a moderator may be ready to act more quickly when they see that same player being abusive. Is there a point where there may be so many complaints about a certain player that a mod will act without witnessing first hand? I guess that is up to the moderators to decide for themselves.

Unfortunately this seems like it will continue to be a point of contention between those who do it, those who hate it, those who think the moderators should act on every accusation and the silent many who will simply leave the game out of frustration. Having these "statements" from the moderators lets everyone know what to expect from them and perhaps it will make it less likely for anyone to feel  they are being ignored or singled out.



My two cents is that it would be good to have a period of immunity on spawning for everyone. How long? 12-15 seconds seems good to me. People would probably avoid coming head on into a runway or carrier after a few trys. (I've suggested before that it may be nice to shift South base 90degrees like North Base is but I don't think it would be necessary.) The entire spawnkilling debate could disappear. Other issues have been solved by such in-game mechanisms. (Tanking in enemy territory, bombing the hangars in zep missions , teamkilling for the most part...)

Please mods , keep it coming so people can know what to expect from you on this issue. It will give everyone something to refer to when the issue arises, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...........................

" It may give the player who is always blasting you from behind as you try and escape a reason to let you go and focus on the incoming. Think about it. Wouldn't you let a Ace leave rather than risk him "Strategically" shooting you into the pavement for trying it?"

Kevy...I really like this statement...

I feel it's a clash between players who want to play this game one way. Take off make formations and make a bombing run Vs. Dogfighters who just want to shoot stuff and dogfight all the time. Both are styles of play that one style inhibits the other. Some have slower planes not that good at dogfighting skills and cannot compete in that area but enjoy the game and want to get out into the field of play and strategize. They get pinned at the port for extended periods without much hope of getting into the air and don't like it. The other side says go to the store buy a top line device(actually you need two different and now possibly three) pay for a premium connection, don't play with a weak signal or if there are three people on your wifi and learn how to be more like me! Then you too can decimate those who don't. And there is all the players in between.
Most can't just take the game as it is and deal with it. They have to have it their way so the debate begins.
Joaquin created a masterpiece. You wouldn't be reading this if you didn't agree. He has done a lot with very limited resources. Everyone do your thing. My idea only persecutes a small fraction of players and in a limited way. If you enjoy dogfighting you would give them 10 seconds to get up,drop and get a little speed and make at least one maneuver. I am not a fan of a points player. Yes it is part of the game but no it's not the defining aspect of who is best. You still can shoot them quicker, you just don't score that kill and points. You would be doing it because you think it's fun not for reward.

I think we can all agree that the defining aspect of who is best includes all aspects of the game not just the dogfighting plane to plane alone and many of these are reflected in points like zepplin, tank, chute, bombing of hangars and/or carriers, ability to capture, team aspects like winning, etc.

Kevy, I echo ur sentiment on the first paragraph..thanks for the insight Kevy.

|111th| tSwopCaml wrote: " It may give the player who is always blasting you from behind as you try and escape a reason to let you go and focus on the incoming. Think about it. Wouldn't you let a Ace leave rather than risk him "Strategically" shooting you into the pavement for trying it?"

Kevy...I really like this statement...

Yup this is not only good reasoning, it's true in practice. How often do you leave a tank that is still mid-way (NOT near your airport, or even at half-point for expert tankers), take a mental note, and enjoy an easier bombing approach because there's one less enemy launching from their airport? Of course, be sure to get that tank after you bomb! And I certainly let an expert enemy plane fly away if they bombed my airport. Why engage someone, when I could follow at safe distance with my bomb ready? Besides, if they bombed, they are now more manueverable than I am. Anyway, having the next engagement closer to their airport is a good idea.

Manfred

If you want to discourage spawn killing how about, instead of healing your plane over the red base when you bomb a hangar leave the damage. If you get back to your base then it gets fixed there. And! then you get a load of 2 bombs! Also never allow a player who gets team killed to get a tank. Just a thought.....Might also shorten some btb games if that matters also..........Sgt York!

If you take off and lolly gag in a straight line don't whine when you get lit up from behind. It's all timing, Brake, Full throttle, release, drop and turn makes for a difficult target.

It's irritating in to be SK'd in DF but I make note of who's doing it and target them as a priority. Immnunity with the brake on was a great addition.

As for bannable, only Tank SKing in my book

Sgt.York wrote: If you want to discourage spawn killing how about, instead of healing your plane over the red base when you bomb a hangar leave the damage. If you get back to your base then it gets fixed there. And! then you get a load of 2 bombs! Also never allow a player who gets team killed to get a tank. Just a thought.....Might also shorten some btb games if that matters also..........Sgt York!

Why da heck does the plane get healed after bombing anyway? Seems like a legacy feature that has outlived whatever usefulness it might have had at one time. Time to get rid of that!
Manfred

I'm always happy when I bomb and the damage I got on approach magically heals up. Very useful

I disagree....its a way for Zuperman to promote more bombing as opposed to just plane to plane activity....I believe you should get some kind of extra reward compared to a normal kill for bombing.....its no extra points just repair.....

exactly....and thats why return fire to the point where they stop returning fire so you retreat back to base comes in....sometimes near or close to the base....depending on the amount of fire on the retreating plane.....I always try to return to base....but if the amount of shooting from behind as I retreat occurs more often then I have no choice....I refuse to let myself get shot up so I can respawn...and I refuse to crash myself and hurt my stats on crashes.

Actually, the plane repair after bombing is designed specifically for campers it allows them to hang around longer;)

...or you can look at it as giving more repair to be able to return to base without getting shot dowm or crashing....lol you take ur pic

Double-edged sword. Helps the bombers get back to reload, helps the campers camp.