I hate getting into these arguments here, simply because I can't win. I - a fourteen year old kid - can't argue politics or business with fifty-something adults. Oh well. I'll win eventually,

Yes, hobby sounds about right, or it used to. He's said here before that he is in it for fun, or at least he was. I believe that you were here when he announced Echoboom, right? That's when it changed. It became his livelihood. Recently. It's a new business.

Yes, it is his job to fix glitches and problems. However, the current glitch, as I understand it, is out of his hands. Look at it like this: You develop a product; say, a new kind of fabric, stronger than nylon, and lighter than polyester. You developed your product, right? Then you made it into pants, and gave the pants to Walmart to sell. Now, I'm the consumer that wants new pants. I buy a pair of your pants, and suddenly, my whole life turns around! My grades go up, I'm the star of the football team, I'm dating a cheerleader, you get the idea. Now, something in these pants causes them to turn green once a month, and I have to send them in to get repaired, during which time I wear a pair of Levis. Now, sometimes, I get to send my pants straight to you, and you send them back. That's great, because you know what's wrong with them, and your only job is to fix my green pants. However, if I have to give them to Walmart, some guy working for minimum wage who doesn't give a rat's ass about my pants, and therefore your company's reputation, is left to make my pants blue again. He does it, and he does a fine job. After his lunch break. And then his girlfriend calls. Then he discovers crossword puzzles. A week later, I get a call to come pick up my pants. When you fix my pants, it only takes three days, because it's your reputation at stake, so, naturally, you have a staff of pant-fixers, but, even that isn't enough, which is why sometimes I have to give my pants to Walmart. Steve, at Walmart, doesn't care if I buy another pair of your pants, he's too busy with his degree in Art History. I am you. You are Joaquin. Steve is Apple and Google. Now, you're right, it IS his job to fix problems, in the same way that it's YOUR job to make my pants blue. If I send my pants to you, great, you get the job done quickly, but if I have to give my precious pants to Steve, and he turns them hot pink and cuts off the left leg just above the knee, can you help that? No, it's Steve that decided my pants would look better as a Picasso. You're holding Joaquin to his own, perfectly reasonable standards. You want Dogfight. I want my blue pants in three days. If it has to go through Apple, he can't control that. You can't control that Steve molested my pants with scissors and a pink sharpie.

Actually, Brian DID get an answer from Joaquin, and he got the okay to play. He said that nothing should happen when he hits one million points. Something might happen, and he'll fix it, which he can do much faster now, because it's happened before. It's happened before, like the first time that you got a complaint that Steve had turned my pants into something that Aunt Maggie would cough up, every single one of your employees were on the ground laughing for a week. Now, you're used to puke pants, and your employees simply snicker, then go back to making blue pants.

The servers aren't screwed up, and they haven't been screwed up in months.

No, it doesn't alter anything, but think about this. This app has hundreds of thousands of downloads. Those downloads are customers. I'm one of Walmart's thousands of customers. If I walked in, went to customer service, and said that I wanted them to start carrying black WigPants instead of blue ones, Steve would laugh at me, and I'd be black-pantsless.

He started Echoboom to make stuff happen faster. It's not working out at the moment. Should he lay off employees? When Manfred told that story a few days ago, about how Obama made him need to fire people, but he wouldn't, so Manfred was the good guy there. Is Joaquin the bad guy for doing that?

If you're that well off, why don't you do that? You clearly like this game, or you'd be asleep. Offer to help fund him, in exchange for a portion of the profits. Whatever.

If he's in this for the money or to have fun, he STILL CAN'T CHANGE WHAT APPLE AND GOOGLE WILL DO. They'll get to approving our stuff when they feel like it, and Joaquin can't do anything about it.

Nothing offensive in that coop, glad you shared it with us.

Flyingmuck wrote: And of course as he has sold the product and it is now broken, for many within less than 12 months there is probably a damn good chance that he is in contravention of trading standard regulations and various trading and retailing regulations/ laws of whatever country the player is in and if everyone who has the game in a broken state where to peruse the matter he would broke/destitute/finé in a matter of weeks, who knows there may even be case for fraudulent selling, that's often means prison. This is a serious matter, one that he needs to address very soon, like yesterday.

And if things went that way, it would of course involve Apple and Google as they are the outlets for his substandard product.

I'm not slating the guy, I think he came up with a wonderful idea and I don't want to see him dragged through the mud, but he needs to sort this out somehow. If needs an extra £ or $ from us to do so, then ask for it, he should be able to raise a few grand that way.

I almost just said that a captain goes down with his ship. That doesn't say anything about us, the crew, though.

Muck, if many people here felt like suing Joaquin over $5 they've spent on this game, they wouldn't be here.

If he needs money, he should ask for it? That's the logical thing to do, but since when are people logical? Pride. Maybe he doesn't want to risk his pride until he absolutely has to.

Mr. Cooper, your fallen FDNY brethren would double your number of Thank Yous if they were here. I didn't see your "let the number stand" request until it was too late. And like Jasmine when she team killed me a few days ago, "I'm NOT sorry." Thank you for posting the poem, for being the guy who would, for so much more.

Thank you, Coop.

CalvinIsAwesome wrote: I hate getting into these arguments here, simply because I can't win. I - a fourteen year old kid - can't argue politics or business with fifty-something adults. Oh well. I'll win eventually,

Yes, hobby sounds about right, or it used to. He's said here before that he is in it for fun, or at least he was. I believe that you were here when he announced Echoboom, right? That's when it changed. It became his livelihood. Recently. It's a new business.

Yes, it is his job to fix glitches and problems. However, the current glitch, as I understand it, is out of his hands. Look at it like this: You develop a product; say, a new kind of fabric, stronger than nylon, and lighter than polyester. You developed your product, right? Then you made it into pants, and gave the pants to Walmart to sell. Now, I'm the consumer that wants new pants. I buy a pair of your pants, and suddenly, my whole life turns around! My grades go up, I'm the star of the football team, I'm dating a cheerleader, you get the idea. Now, something in these pants causes them to turn green once a month, and I have to send them in to get repaired, during which time I wear a pair of Levis. Now, sometimes, I get to send my pants straight to you, and you send them back. That's great, because you know what's wrong with them, and your only job is to fix my green pants. However, if I have to give them to Walmart, some guy working for minimum wage who doesn't give a rat's ass about my pants, and therefore your company's reputation, is left to make my pants blue again. He does it, and he does a fine job. After his lunch break. And then his girlfriend calls. Then he discovers crossword puzzles. A week later, I get a call to come pick up my pants. When you fix my pants, it only takes three days, because it's your reputation at stake, so, naturally, you have a staff of pant-fixers, but, even that isn't enough, which is why sometimes I have to give my pants to Walmart. Steve, at Walmart, doesn't care if I buy another pair of your pants, he's too busy with his degree in Art History. I am you. You are Joaquin. Steve is Apple and Google. Now, you're right, it IS his job to fix problems, in the same way that it's YOUR job to make my pants blue. If I send my pants to you, great, you get the job done quickly, but if I have to give my precious pants to Steve, and he turns them hot pink and cuts off the left leg just above the knee, can you help that? No, it's Steve that decided my pants would look better as a Picasso. You're holding Joaquin to his own, perfectly reasonable standards. You want Dogfight. I want my blue pants in three days. If it has to go through Apple, he can't control that. You can't control that Steve molested my pants with scissors and a pink sharpie.

Actually, Brian DID get an answer from Joaquin, and he got the okay to play. He said that nothing should happen when he hits one million points. Something might happen, and he'll fix it, which he can do much faster now, because it's happened before. It's happened before, like the first time that you got a complaint that Steve had turned my pants into something that Aunt Maggie would cough up, every single one of your employees were on the ground laughing for a week. Now, you're used to puke pants, and your employees simply snicker, then go back to making blue pants.

The servers aren't screwed up, and they haven't been screwed up in months.

No, it doesn't alter anything, but think about this. This app has hundreds of thousands of downloads. Those downloads are customers. I'm one of Walmart's thousands of customers. If I walked in, went to customer service, and said that I wanted them to start carrying black WigPants instead of blue ones, Steve would laugh at me, and I'd be black-pantsless.

He started Echoboom to make stuff happen faster. It's not working out at the moment. Should he lay off employees? When Manfred told that story a few days ago, about how Obama made him need to fire people, but he wouldn't, so Manfred was the good guy there. Is Joaquin the bad guy for doing that?

If you're that well off, why don't you do that? You clearly like this game, or you'd be asleep. Offer to help fund him, in exchange for a portion of the profits. Whatever.

If he's in this for the money or to have fun, he STILL CAN'T CHANGE WHAT APPLE AND GOOGLE WILL DO. They'll get to approving our stuff when they feel like it, and Joaquin can't do anything about it.

You can't argue politics or business !!! Cal you is doing a damned fine job of doing so young man, I don't want to argue with you when you feel you can argue, you get karma for this. And you stick to your guns, you are going a long way in life my friend, I admire you for that.

CalvinIsAwesome wrote:

Flyingmuck wrote: And of course as he has sold the product and it is now broken, for many within less than 12 months there is probably a damn good chance that he is in contravention of trading standard regulations and various trading and retailing regulations/ laws of whatever country the player is in and if everyone who has the game in a broken state where to peruse the matter he would broke/destitute/finé in a matter of weeks, who knows there may even be case for fraudulent selling, that's often means prison. This is a serious matter, one that he needs to address very soon, like yesterday.

And if things went that way, it would of course involve Apple and Google as they are the outlets for his substandard product.

I'm not slating the guy, I think he came up with a wonderful idea and I don't want to see him dragged through the mud, but he needs to sort this out somehow. If needs an extra £ or $ from us to do so, then ask for it, he should be able to raise a few grand that way.

I almost just said that a captain goes down with his ship. That doesn't say anything about us, the crew, though.

Muck, if many people here felt like suing Joaquin over $5 they've spent on this game, they wouldn't be here.

If he needs money, he should ask for it? That's the logical thing to do, but since when are people logical? Pride. Maybe he doesn't want to risk his pride until he absolutely has to.

Well I don't feel like suing him, I feel like standing over him with a big stick at times, because the guy came up with something good, something that's made a lot of people happy and given birth to a lot of good meaningful friendships and I don't want to see that lost. Do you intend to run for president or something when your older, cos you get my vote!

Thanks, Muck.

Guys, read this. This is an excerpt from a post on Joaquin's blog, which specifically says that this is a - guess what - a hobby! He says "I can only offer this because this is a hobby..." He's smart, he doesn't let a hobby take more than he can afford. How a 30 year old guy managed to get rich enough to retire is beyond me, but it happened.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I’m doing two new mobile games for Android and Apple devices. I’m the project leader but I do the programming because it’s my hobby. The graphic design, music and so on is done by others. It took me literally 2 hours to find all and each of the team members. All of them are incredibly talented and rock stars in a field that could command a good amount of $. None I called saying: tell me about yourself. My calls (or emails) were more like: “I saw your site, I saw your blog, I ADMIRE your work. I can only offer this and that because this is a hobby for me, but I would love to have you on my team.” They don’t seem to be approached like this very often because some even offered to collaborate for free or take time out of their busy schedule to help me out. Meanwhile, I keep hearing recruiters complaining about how they are not able to find talent. I think there are some lessons to be learned here.

Your vote for president? I doubt I would. You were part of the group arguing with me on the politics thread, right?

CalvinIsAwesome wrote: Thanks, Muck.

Guys, read this. This is an excerpt from a post on Joaquin's blog, which specifically says that this is a - guess what - a hobby! He says "I can only offer this because this is a hobby..." He's smart, he doesn't let a hobby take more than he can afford. How a 30 year old guy managed to get rich enough to retire is beyond me, but it happened.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I’m doing two new mobile games for Android and Apple devices. I’m the project leader but I do the programming because it’s my hobby. The graphic design, music and so on is done by others. It took me literally 2 hours to find all and each of the team members. All of them are incredibly talented and rock stars in a field that could command a good amount of $. None I called saying: tell me about yourself. My calls (or emails) were more like: “I saw your site, I saw your blog, I ADMIRE your work. I can only offer this and that because this is a hobby for me, but I would love to have you on my team.” They don’t seem to be approached like this very often because some even offered to collaborate for free or take time out of their busy schedule to help me out. Meanwhile, I keep hearing recruiters complaining about how they are not able to find talent. I think there are some lessons to be learned here.

Well maybe he could use a little of that talent he's found to fix up DF, then we can let him be your vice president when the time comes!

That talent is Echoboom. I think.

CalvinIsAwesome wrote: Your vote for president? I doubt I would. You were part of the group arguing with me on the politics thread, right?

All argument and discussion is useful, from it many lessons can be and are learnt.

Going to bed now. 4 in the morning. So much for getting to sleep early tonight. I'll be glad to argue more in the morning.

Ok guys, I'm working tonight, so it's up the wooden hill and into the pit for me.
I love every one ya, (in a brotherly way that is) see you all later.

Can't get on either.

Laotian noobs ... ASSEMBLE! And lynch Z!!!

(Joking, sort of ... Maybe a hostile takeover?)

Wig did you say you lost all your xp and junk? I still see you up there in the rankings. ...

I've still been playing! Keep trying peeps....good luck

Ok for whatever its worth I just shut down the app and relaunched it and was able to get in two games without dropped connection.

Well Cal, you may only be fourteen but you're going to make a helluva trial attorney some day...because you have me practically persuaded though two thirds of what you said makes no sense! You're already a crafty lawyer, you just aren't getting the exorbitant fees. Yet.

Seriously,the points that make sense are very well made. Here's perhaps a clearer version of your analogy. (editing copy is part of what I do)

Joaquin makes blue pants. Google and Apple sell blue pants. There's either a tacit or printed agreement that the pants won't turn your arse green. There may, in fact, be a contract clause exempting Google/Apple from responsibility for your green arse. Should it go green, that clause may indemnify Joaquin for your chartreuse caboose leaving Goopple out of the litigation loop. One of two classic scenarios now occurs. Either you return the green "mood" jeans to Wal-Mart/Apple/Google for replacement or refund or Apple/Wal-Mart/Google says, "F*UK off, corn dog!! Those have to be returned to the manufacturer!" There's a contract somewhere stating whether Apple bought that right from Joaquin or if they have to accept the return in-store then ship the bleeding green jeans to Joaquin themselves. The details from that point on don't matter; you've returned your pants for repair, a ready-by date has been provided, and so...three days or three months you sit around...with no pants. Winter sets in. No pants. Your junk is turning denim blue. You begin thinking, "F*ck...better green pants (lag, drop outs, glitches, immunity) than no pants at all!"

In other words, Cal, the analogy fails. You go to Wal-Mart, buy your pants, bring them home. If they stay blue as advertised, fine. If they oxidize your orblocks you return 'em to Wal-Mart (GoogleApple) who refunds your money or satisfies your claim then returns the greenjeans to the manufacturer, Joaquin Jeans. If anyone suffers it's at this point. Joaquin and the superstores have struck a deal. Whichever of them takes the hit it IS NOT the customer. Yeah, you with the green nuts.

So what have we learned? There is no revolutionary product, just a tiny, stripped down version of 1990's Red Baron. There is no Steve. Just little hobbiest boy who made an app and two monolithic corporations who want to distribute it. It costs big corporation (Apple, Google) nothing to carry the app. It costs developer boy the minimal amount needed to host the product and maintain the software and servers. Apple bears no responsibility, Joaquin bears all responsibility, and you bear your green balls. The nature of the contract twixt Joaquin and Goapple makes him the responsibile party in case of complaint. So no, it isn't like buying pants at Wal-mart because in that case you complain to the store. You don't go to Levi's HeadQuarters and raise a stink about the green stains on your crank.

Faulty merch goes back to store. If store has deal to defer complaints to factory, factory corrects problem. On the spot. No excuses or explanations or arguments, just evaluate what's wrong and fix it.

This suggestion that Goagple are responsible and the plea for more server funding cancel each other. Servers inadequate? Not Googapples fault. Appoogle's fault? Nothing to do with hobby boy's servers. It can't be both ways.

If Apple and Google were in this for money, which they are, why would they purposely sabotage a successful product? If they were in it for enjoyment, which they aren't, why would they make themselves look bad promoting a shoddy app?

Joaquin has a deal with Apple and one with Google. His product has bugs. What they do with it does not produce the bugs. It's his job to deal with them, correct the tech issues and set things straight. It's their job to rake in cash. It is NOT our job, the customers, to sit around pantsless with green tinted packages freezing while they do or do not hurry to serve us. Brian is saying he hasn't had a satisfactory answer from Joaquin. I haven't had any at all. Neither has Coop. All he has said is "it's an Apple problem, Android is fine." Which it is not. So does he have a clue? Does he know what he's doing or doesn't he? When is it safe to play the damn game again? Does anyone know, or care?

CounselorIsAwesome, I rest my case.

He just sent me a reply and said try now so I did and it worked.. go figure

Short lived victory... Lol

Flyingmuck wrote:

CalvinIsAwesome wrote: It's not that simple, unfortunately. Anyone here got a few grand lyin around for servers?

Calvin enough with the negative vibes man

HeH HeH Kelly's Hero's

This thread is cool

Hey Just played DogFight on my rotary dial Phone.. Worked great

Did you have to dial 9 for an outside line

dentinhead wrote: KT is short for one of our member's Muck.
Legend, lot's of stone's being thrown in game lately...I have been on the receiving end also...I try to take a breather and play on.....
I was in a game with gary the pink today and there seemed to be some players insulting him...That P&&&es me off more than messing with me....I jumped on his side and called myself a retard....Heh Heh....how right I am.... Anyway's I didn't like it so I stuck up for gary...He didn't need my help but I felt I had to....was a fun game for gary and I.
I have more of a problem with people f****ng with people I know More than myself....
Wig, Hope you get everything straightened out....Wish I could loan you My plane.... Heck I'll even give some of my point's away..... I'm gonna loose my position anyway's cause I don't play as much....
Hope all is well with all DF friends.....

Thanks Dent, it was fun we reached 4000 ft without getting shot down ; and rattled a few aspirants... Funny how one changed attitude when I asked him what his rank was.. A little sheepish after that eh?

I spent the rest of the night @ McD's and @ a coffe shop, both with wifi. Only thing was the connection prob for playing the game. The youth are still rebellious but with an inordinate amount of profanity in their general speech. Male and female.

Profanity is one aspect of a bully pecking order mentality, with delusions of wine/drugs//women, guns and power as their only hope of salvation. After sharply breaking into their conversation to show them where their inappropriate words needed to be placed out of sight, only then did they return to a more plain of speech. Yikes I can't even get a game in of Dogfight without hearing and seeing our future leaders demonstrating crass insolence without restraint...

Standing up for righteousness, may open the door for the brave to create a better world for us all.

Gary-the-pink

I have been playing this AM without getting kicked out, except by my wife

I GOT A GAME! I GOTTA GAME!!!

Well 2 actually. Yakuza was in both, what a thourghly nice guy, never really spoken with him before, usually just been on the receiving end of his guns. Did he get added to the roster yet, I didn't look, told to come and see about his banner wig, hope you don't mind.
One to watch if we ain't already Hells Gate.

dentinhead wrote: Hey Just played DogFight on my rotary dial Phone.. Worked great

I have come to realize that maybe you have been inhaling too much Jet A Fumes...

Soon you will be playing on your Transistor Radio.. Don't bother the Lag is terrible...

thank you so much, programmers and trouble shooter resources... Working well for me now

Was a fun game Gary. Glad I popped in when I did.....One of the player's that was acting up, I've played against before. I was suprised to see How he was acting (Knowing I came into the event in the middle, maybe I misunderstood his actions). But the one Ripper I believe...what a bone head...lol.....Had fun gary....Wig showed up later on , silent for a bit, now I know why.