Can't keep up and not allowed to post unless I sneak it by.
I'll be back in the states soon. Sat/fax has been working butdelays all and it loses something in translation.

Back in the states soon. All this bs is bs. I am who I was in the beginning.
I came through even though I choose to use another card to pay.
I wish you all well.

Be strong M.O.M

PAUL MANTZ, JR. and proud of it!

Hi all. Havent been on much. Sick this weekend. Muck i am just trusting in your leadership and will wait for what you all decide. Once a MOM always a MOM. lots of good ideas on the thread and a few really bad ones. But a healthy discussion is good. Try to stay positive everyone. And for god sake someone cut me a piece of cake!!!!!

GAW wrote:

Flying muck wrote:

GAW wrote:

Flying muck wrote: From now on, we are MoM "MOTHERS of MAYHEM" do we take up the name?

Sorry Muck, I am not elated with the "Mothers of Mayhem" suggestion. I was hoping that we would be able to stick with Mean of Men with a new logo. Can we have a dialogue as to why that this is not possible before entertain ideas for alternatives?

GAW, I dearly want to stay with the name MOM, believe me and I'm close to telling you all it stays, come hell or high water and giving the finger to anyone who objects, even at the cost of a few friendships.

Who would oppose that?

thats funny irony. Not in a bad way of course. Man i remember first seeing the MOM tag. I thought it ment Men Of Mayham, till wig explained it to me what it ment. Lol. Good name guys.

So hows the squad doing. I didnt hear of all that went down till a few weeks ago, I also have had some bad personal situations hit home. But im getting some gov help to help me and the fam out. I like how Muck took control of the situation like a good leader would. Yall made a good choice making him leader.

Hope yall moms are doing ok. C yall around

no disrespect and in my line of work I too am sensitive to copyright but the squad name Mean Old Men can and should be used in game. Merchandising gets dicey but srsly, how many squad T's are gonna be sold.... really, a dozen...maybe. Ego and hubris are funny things.

The banners were made for the use of the person named on them. Therefore that person may display his banner anywhere he may choose to do so. As for the name, well it just so happens that Mothers of Mayhem, Men of Mayhem, Mad old Men, Mangy old Moose ect, all have the same damn initials as Mean old Men MOM.
Now for the benefit of those who may be watching, the guys in this squad are what makes the squad and they want to be MOM's so MOM's they shall be. Shit we can call ourselves Mysterious old Mice if we want, it's a MOM by any other name and whatever the hell becomes of MOM, wherever it goes, whatever dizzy heights it climbs too....this is where it began, here in dogfight, it's where it began and where it grew, a lot of us have pride in what we made this squad into, in what we made the initials MOM into. I for one stand by and believe we should keep the name and hell, Wig should be damn proud of that and proud that so many of you want to keep the banners he made for you. It's his legacy to the squad, or it bloody well should be.

This post will no doubt make me some enemies, or I dare say, lose me some friends, but this is MOM's birthplace.

Slash wrote: Good Luck Muck

Is that genuine or sarcastic?

I for one never noticed the li'll wings on the heart logo,......'till this shitstorm was stirred up.

The red heart tattoo you find everywhere........many times with 'MOM' written in the curved whatchammacallit.






Doesn't this make it free to use as a squad logo too?

....and 'Mean Old Men' is just a nice discription of what we are..........(just add a .sq to it)

So M.O.M. Sq.

As for the 'corporate identity' why not make it classier pinup style.....the ones you found on ww1 and 2 airplanes.
It would have to be ART especially at the first glance.
Manfred and others have posted that they were unconfortable having a read IN PUBLIC on the forum because of 'some' banners.
( I think they have a point there. On first glance it did look like a soft porn site....)

It was great in context with the identity of the squad and its creative genious, that is no longer amongst us, regrettably so.
But now.......the context has changed, and have to move on.

What a pile of tosh.

bts wrote: What a pile of tosh.

?

Rudolf Rednose wrote:

bts wrote: What a pile of tosh.

?

A pile of BS

Slash wrote:

Wigbomb wrote: M.O.Ms,

I've just learned that echoboom is attempting to merchandise our squad graphics and name without permission.

The M.O.M flying heart tattoo logo and the names "M.O.M" and "Mean Old Men" as well as any copy content or other M.O.M graphics were created by me, are copyrighted material of mine, and have not been authorized for use by anyone other than me.

I've informed echoboom that they need to immediately withdraw any and all of my work from their merchandising.

BUMP,

A FRIENDLY REMINDER OF A POST SOME OF YOU MIGHT HAVE MISSED?

This is directed at you Doggy.

Well, not getting myself involved because that statement was so stupid that is a joke. But aside from that, Rick said no permission to Echoboom to merchandise... he gave you all permission to use it, until he forgot his pills and then started saying he has copyright over the whole world and nobody can use anything without consent. The funny thing is that he gave you express permission, and unless it had a expiration date, you can't give permission, remove permission, give permission, remove permission... on copyright and trademarks at will.

Of course, he can sue you if he sees it fit, although I would love to see how that pans out because it wouldn't stand on any court in any place in this world. Not to mention that he would need your personal info one by one and go to court on each country. Pop corns?

El Maestro 25- who are you please.Onviously you are somebody but I want to know who was PM'ing me to be patient over this issue.
Perhaps you could unmask yourself here?

Rudolf Rednose wrote: I for one never noticed the li'll wings on the heart logo,......'till this shitstorm was stirred up.

The red heart tattoo you find everywhere........many times with 'MOM' written in the curved whatchammacallit.

Doesn't this make it free to use as a squad logo too?

....and 'Mean Old Men' is just a nice discription of what we are..........(just add a .sq to it)

So M.O.M. Sq.

As for the 'corporate identity' why not make it classier pinup style.....the ones you found on ww1 and 2 airplanes.
It would have to be ART especially at the first glance.
Manfred and others have posted that they were unconfortable having a read IN PUBLIC on the forum because of 'some' banners.
( I think they have a point there. On first glance it did look like a soft porn site....)

It was great in context with the identity of the squad and its creative genious, that is no longer amongst us, regrettably so.
But now.......the context has changed, and have to move on.

Rick doesn't have copyright or trademark over that logo. I said it long ago and I say it again. It's all over the internet. You can just pick up a logo, add wings and say you own it. Just write a trademark office and ask if you can register the logo. You will have fun when after the 500 euros fees it comes back with a negative because it is used in a similar form by thousands of companies and merchandise.

If he wants to stop the use of the logo, the law is very clear, he just needs to submit proof of his registration to any legal entity and it would be removed. He can't do that, because he only owns it on his head.

When you are here zup-can you remove wig as moderator and replace him with muck??

No excuses now!!Flying muck in blue next to moderator.

Im glad thats settled and we can move on. What is it we settled again? Oh yeah CAKE!!!

Best I could do on short notice. Enjoy.

Doggy Dix wrote:

bts wrote: When you are here zup-can you remove wig as moderator and replace him with muck??

He/Muck has email you several times ... please so we get to the end of this charade...please Zup...

I only saw an email from him yesterday and give him mod status

I think I origionally gave him the wrong email address...

Holy crap!!!!

What has happened while i was away!! Please someone fill me in. Wig is banned and all the beautiful banners are gone .

Im sorry ive been gone for so long. Ran into a rut and had to make some tough choices of non nessessary bills. Meaning no cable, internet, and limited minutes. Im back on track now and should be able to serve the MOMs to my fullest.

I had a nice exchange with the Banned One via email. I figured I would go straight to the source vs. third hand, telephone game crap. He was explicit that he wants us to drop the squad name and logo because this forum is tied to Echoboom. He was also apologetic over the poor communication on this. It is an issue between him and echo boom with us being "collateral damage." BTW, I worked that in there for you Muck. Thus, the Banned One (if I say this enough perhaps a mythical quality will attach to it) wants no connection or extension of MOM in the Echoboom world putting us on our own. The Banned One was hoping for our loyalty on this. The Banned One's perspective is that he was more or less the creative force behind the squad in terms of the name and logo (some might call that branding) as evidenced by the countless hours spent collaborating and designing the MOM Brand.

On this I respectfully disagreed. I am fine with dumping The Banned One's (Rick this is meant as a mythical term of affection) banner designs. I think The Banned One oversteps a bit with trying to stake ownership of the Mean Old Men. Reading back on the thread, Mean Old Men was arrived at by consensus vote. I'll concede that TBO might have originally thought of this acronym, but it was selected by the group. I would also like to think that the motley bunch that flew with the tag had as much to do with creating the MOM brand as the acronym originator. Maybe even more so since plenty of cleverly named squads flopped. I am not sure how entitled I am to speak as a barely above average player and fairly new MOM. The problem is as a MOM in real life, I am not used to being dictated to with regards to really anything. My bosses explain decisions to me. They are even somewhat accountable to me. I get input. As a 43 year old professional, I expect these things. It is hard to step into a GAME and suddenly be told what to do.

The question is can we maintain our friendship and affection for TBO while disagreeing over his claim to have sole discretion over the MOM name. In terms of perspective, TBO is an artist personally and professionally. It might be unreasonable to expect him to not see what is huge role in MOM was an extension of his art. In spite of this, I think we can disagree with TBO on this and minimize the hard feelings. That said, I don't know him as well as some. I also told TBO I was flying my banner as an act of civil disobedience (the first in my life). I think I will enjoy my protest a bit longer.

I support you Muck. Let's go bully some teenagers in the unfriendly skies!

Hey Guys Check Out This Squad Feel Free To Post On It...

www.dogfightplay.com/index.php/forum/8-s...ht-official-squadron

My first marriage crashed and burned after only 18 months but my ex wife still uses my last name. It annoys the hell out of my new wife of 15 years; but alas, I can't take it back.

I was thinking about a forum of our own... So TBO could maintain comunication with us... Or not... It is just an idea...
There is such a forum underway, where you can all talk about different games different things or just chew the cud.

Flying muck wrote:
One thing I think we should be clear on, is that the SC do not call the shots, the SC no longer has anything to do with the squad,though myself and a number of other MOM's are still active in that group, it has nothing to do with this squad, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Should I take this as that I have overstayed my welcome?
Well you do as you please.
Should I remove myself or will you do it if I don't?
Anders, all I'm saying is that the SC as it was is defunct, we will be putting together some sort of admission board later, you do not need to nor do any of us want you to leave.

bellsaj wrote:

Flying muck wrote:
One thing I think we should be clear on, is that the SC do not call the shots, the SC no longer has anything to do with the squad,though myself and a number of other MOM's are still active in that group, it has nothing to do with this squad, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Should I take this as that I have overstayed my welcome?
Well you do as you please.
Should I remove myself or will you do it if I don't?

OH MAN!!! I for one don't want you to leave If that counts for anything...

You don't need to go anywhere, Tink. Things are just going to be a bit different here. I for one hope you feel welcome.

bellsaj wrote:

Flying muck wrote:
One thing I think we should be clear on, is that the SC do not call the shots, the SC no longer has anything to do with the squad,though myself and a number of other MOM's are still active in that group, it has nothing to do with this squad, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Should I take this as that I have overstayed my welcome?
Well you do as you please.
Should I remove myself or will you do it if I don't?

D I E S E L wrote:

bellsaj wrote:

Flying muck wrote:
One thing I think we should be clear on, is that the SC do not call the shots, the SC no longer has anything to do with the squad,though myself and a number of other MOM's are still active in that group, it has nothing to do with this squad, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Should I take this as that I have overstayed my welcome?
Well you do as you please.
Should I remove myself or will you do it if I don't?

OH MAN!!! I for one don't want you to leave If that counts for anything...

As you are my absolute favorite lass in DF it sure as hell counts. At least for me.

Well I, for one one, feel less than welcome. I feel violated by this community. I gave unconditional support to this game. I supported Echoboom in their efforts. I bought the game several times. I bought coin several times. I brought tons of friends to the game. I joined a unique squad and fell in love with its members. I made friends here that I hope to keep for a lifetime. However, I watched the developer of this defunct little game take a big steaming crap on this squad and some of its key members and now I watch those that remain gripe and complain because the offended parties actually took offense.

This squad isn't "owned" by any one of us. It isn't "owned" at all. It is us. I'm shocked that we, as "us", haven't supported the requests of the most dedicated of "us". I'm appalled that so many of "us" are outright abusive and disrespectful. It saddens me, but after years of being one of "us" that I'm jumping ship. Y'all take this group and do what you will with it. You should have the common courtesy to not use material that you've been asked not to, but I'd be more shocked by everyone here doing that than by all the other BS I've seen lately. John, I'm most disappointed in what you've done here. You are right, it's costing you friends and you can count me among them.

I intend this to be my last post.

abusive and disrespectful???

where? Are we reading the same posts?

Jump ship when the going get's tough, not really a MOM to begin with in my book... regardless of tenure

So it is OK for the not owned squad to be surreptitiously yanked from us, but if we don't go quietly we are wrong? I really like Rick. I get that he spent more time than anyone else working on this. I think it is a bit egocentric for him to believe this squad is his and his alone, never would have happened without him. I agree he was unfairly and arbitrarily shown the door. Jump ship! The water's freaking great! I should know, I got thrown fucking overboard!

ParrotHead wrote: Well I, for one one, feel less than welcome. I feel violated by this community. I gave unconditional support to this game. I supported Echoboom in their efforts. I bought the game several times. I bought coin several times. I brought tons of friends to the game. I joined a unique squad and fell in love with its members. I made friends here that I hope to keep for a lifetime. However, I watched the developer of this defunct little game take a big steaming crap on this squad and some of its key members and now I watch those that remain gripe and complain because the offended parties actually took offense.

This squad isn't "owned" by any one of us. It isn't "owned" at all. It is us. I'm shocked that we, as "us", haven't supported the requests of the most dedicated of "us". I'm appalled that so many of "us" are outright abusive and disrespectful. It saddens me, but after years of being one of "us" that I'm jumping ship. Y'all take this group and do what you will with it. You should have the common courtesy to not use material that you've been asked not to, but I'd be more shocked by everyone here doing that than by all the other BS I've seen lately. John, I'm most disappointed in what you've done here. You are right, it's costing you friends and you can count me among them.

I intend this to be my last post.