I've been playing Elite a little since reaching Moraf in the 'classic' game, and thought I'd make a few observations. First off, Zup's done a great job taking the basic game and widening it. I'm sure the bugs will be worked out as they were with the older game.

1) It looks gorgeous. I always favour gameplay over detail if it comes to a choice, and Dogfight still feels 'cleaner' but there's no doubt that the landscape, trees, flame and smoke etc look great. It feels slower and jerkier than Dogfight.

2) The new features make something of a difference. Clouds and landscape that hide players (from view ahead, not from the map) and ballistic drop promise to change the way the game is played a little. In my early games I thought this would really break the game out of the frankly dull tendency to play only down the middle and focus largely on head-on sniping

3) Not much has changed. It seems that people are getting used to the differences very quickly and working round them. The first few games I played were much more like real air combat, where you could get close enough for a proper turning fight. (In WW1, it would be very, very unlikely to get a kill head on, and your only chance of making a kill at any distance was if a lucky bullet either hit the pilot or happened to take out something critical in the engine). However, the last couple of days have just been back to the old situation where the better players can score a kill from distance. Moreover, in Dogfight you can see every bullet and know when you're being hit. In Elite, you only see a proportion of bullets so it's harder to avoid them. This means there's a stronger tendency to focus on playing 'chicken' in the old style, hoping to knock down your opponent before they knock you down. The ballistic drop is minimal. It really doesn't make much difference. It's a bit of a compromise. It actually seems harder to avoid being hit until you can get close in.

4) I'm not sure if it's different enough for me. I'd hoped that Elite would be a proper air combat simulator, not the frankly dull sharpshooting match of the older game. It seems that players aren't that interested in exploring the different ways to play that the new game allows, and the new game doesn't do enough to force people out of these habits or the lack of realism. That's fine, but I've been spending a lot of time playing recently, and have been considering retiring when I got to MORAF. I'm still considering it.

Cundall wrote: I've been playing Elite a little since reaching Moraf in the 'classic' game, and thought I'd make a few observations. First off, Zup's done a great job taking the basic game and widening it. I'm sure the bugs will be worked out as they were with the older game.

1) It looks gorgeous. I always favour gameplay over detail if it comes to a choice, and Dogfight still feels 'cleaner' but there's no doubt that the landscape, trees, flame and smoke etc look great. It feels slower and jerkier than Dogfight.

2) The new features make something of a difference. Clouds and landscape that hide players (from view ahead, not from the map) and ballistic drop promise to change the way the game is played a little. In my early games I thought this would really break the game out of the frankly dull tendency to play only down the middle and focus largely on head-on sniping

3) Not much has changed. It seems that people are getting used to the differences very quickly and working round them. The first few games I played were much more like real air combat, where you could get close enough for a proper turning fight. (In WW1, it would be very, very unlikely to get a kill head on, and your only chance of making a kill at any distance was if a lucky bullet either hit the pilot or happened to take out something critical in the engine). However, the last couple of days have just been back to the old situation where the better players can score a kill from distance. Moreover, in Dogfight you can see every bullet and know when you're being hit. In Elite, you only see a proportion of bullets so it's harder to avoid them. This means there's a stronger tendency to focus on playing 'chicken' in the old style, hoping to knock down your opponent before they knock you down. The ballistic drop is minimal. It really doesn't make much difference. It's a bit of a compromise. It actually seems harder to avoid being hit until you can get close in.

4) I'm not sure if it's different enough for me. I'd hoped that Elite would be a proper air combat simulator, not the frankly dull sharpshooting match of the older game. It seems that players aren't that interested in exploring the different ways to play that the new game allows, and the new game doesn't do enough to force people out of these habits or the lack of realism. That's fine, but I've been spending a lot of time playing recently, and have been considering retiring when I got to MORAF. I'm still considering it.

I agree with the Ballistic drop. Early on when Elite first came out the Drop was much more substantial. I prefered this and it favoured my playing style of trying to gain a angle advantage opposed to head on sniping. If I had one request it would be to bring that back.

What I have noticed is that there is still a device advantage where one player will have a speed and turning advantage over all other players in a game in turn fighting and you are left cursing your plane and wondering why you are wasting your time

I had to take a break from the skies for a bit, and, now that I'm back, I haven't really logged enough air time to nail down the full impact of differences that have come in the last series of updates.

Bullet drop doesn't seem to have as much of an impact as it did a few weeks ago, even for me (and I haven't played enough lately to have gotten use to it). Did Zup actually "nerf" the bullet drop to appease the whining duelist or has everyone just gotten use to it and adapted?

My planes also seem markedly slower/more sluggish than they did a few weeks back. Did Zup also dial back speed/handling on the WWI planes in these last updates?

I'm kind of at the same point as Cundall; Elite showed a lot of potential, but it's not turning out to be as different as I had hoped. I doubt I will ever spend enough time to become one of the top tunnel of death duelists/snipers here, and, frankly, I have no desire to.

At the risk of starting a flame war here, I'll use the word reality . . . outside of Hollywood, there is little evidence of the head-on, extreme limit of weapon range kill prior to the deployment of air-to-air guided missiles (long after WWI/WWII). Ambush tactics, sneaking, and turn fighting would be closer to reality. A flight simulator that effectively discourages those tactics, and doesn't even have a cockpit anymore (sorry, one of my personal pet peeves) seems to be moving farther away from reality.

Fly up the middle, shoot, live or die, rinse, repeat eventually just isn't all that entertaining.

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just to clarify this:
"Early on when Elite first came out the Drop was much more substantial. I prefered this and it favoured my playing style of trying to gain a angle advantage opposed to head on sniping. If I had one request it would be to bring that back. "

The drop hasn't changed one single bit since Elite came out. Nothing. It is the same since version 1. It's called gravity, and I don't go around changing gravity lol

the only way to stop head-on combat is to drastically reduce the distance or damage on far distances. So that the airplanes have to get much closer to each other which would provoke 3 airplanes shooting at you from every angle. So you would have to learn to try to not fly straight to one airplane.

That's my guess, it would help stop those head-on shootings. But I can bet my kidney that tons of people would be pissed because of that. In fact the shooting distance on Elite was reduced compared to df1 and lot of people complained because they liked their laser beams.

I hate the laser beams.

zuperman wrote: The drop hasn't changed one single bit since Elite came out. Nothing. It is the same since version 1. It's called gravity, and I don't go around changing gravity lol

Well, to many of us it did seem to change, but I still aim high at long distance, and since I don't use the red box (training wheels) it isn't that easy to judge distance and aim location.

As to laser beams I don't like those either, I prefer laser cats.

One more suggestion - require more hits for a kill, so you're inevitably closing more with the opposing machine

It would be nice to have some diffusion of the bullets as well, but I'm guessing that would be a whole new set of problems to engineer

{GI} E*A*G*L*E wrote:

zuperman wrote: The drop hasn't changed one single bit since Elite came out. Nothing. It is the same since version 1. It's called gravity, and I don't go around changing gravity lol

Well, to many of us it did seem to change, but I still aim high at long distance, and since I don't use the red box (training wheels) it isn't that easy to judge distance and aim location.

As to laser beams I don't like those either, I prefer laser cats.

I tried without the red box but against the landscape I can't even see the aircraft, and without knowing how far away it is, even with the tiny amount of bullet drop, it's impossible to judge where to aim. Even then, I'm getting sniped out of existence before I can creep the tracers onto the target

zuperman wrote: the only way to stop head-on combat is to drastically reduce the distance or damage on far distances. So that the airplanes have to get much closer to each other which would provoke 3 airplanes shooting at you from every angle. So you would have to learn to try to not fly straight to one airplane.

That's my guess, it would help stop those head-on shootings. But I can bet my kidney that tons of people would be pissed because of that. In fact the shooting distance on Elite was reduced compared to df1 and lot of people complained because they liked their laser beams.

Yes please! And the sharpshooters can go and find a rifle range game and leave DF to those who actually want air combat

Would it be possible to make the hit boxes smaller from the front so that it is much harder to hit head on? That would bring fights in a little closer.

[NLR]Jacob10000 wrote: Would it be possible to make the hit boxes smaller from the front so that it is much harder to hit head on? That would bring fights in a little closer.

I don't know about that, there have been times I'm really close and feel I'm head on but nothing hits. Either I'm shooting blanks or the bullets are going between the wings (hard to imagine when it's a triplane).

zuperman wrote: the only way to stop head-on combat is to drastically reduce the distance or damage on far distances. So that the airplanes have to get much closer to each other which would provoke 3 airplanes shooting at you from every angle. So you would have to learn to try to not fly straight to one airplane.

That's my guess, it would help stop those head-on shootings. But I can bet my kidney that tons of people would be pissed because of that. In fact the shooting distance on Elite was reduced compared to df1 and lot of people complained because they liked their laser beams.

A simple way to reduce the head on shooting gallery is occasionally drop a bomb or two and fly naked.
It will force a change in flying style. There is nothing like a quick turn fight in the middle of a btb. Just know when to "knock it off"
The key word is occasionally so some don't get all bent out of shape over a drop, a sneak, a deke or a flank.

No coding required.

zuperman wrote: just to clarify this:
"Early on when Elite first came out the Drop was much more substantial. I prefered this and it favoured my playing style of trying to gain a angle advantage opposed to head on sniping. If I had one request it would be to bring that back. "

The drop hasn't changed one single bit since Elite came out. Nothing. It is the same since version 1. It's called gravity, and I don't go around changing gravity lol

Thank you for the clarification on the bullet drop.

Lately I've been in a couple of games with a certain player and he seems to be able to fly circles around not just me but morafs even though he's carrying both bombs, I don't know if it's a device issue or connection or what. It wouldn't be so bad but the guy is a habitual camper and I guess it grates my cheese a little lol

pmoon1{WP***} wrote: Lately I've been in a couple of games with a certain player and he seems to be able to fly circles around not just me but morafs even though he's carrying both bombs, I don't know if it's a device issue or connection or what. It wouldn't be so bad but the guy is a habitual camper and I guess it grates my cheese a little lol

During my short forays into elite I have noticed everyone turns faster than me as well. I assume it is due to me being a pc player and my opponent being a tilt player. Still a huge disparity in turning ability. Sticking with df1 for a bit longer.

I am a tilt player and really haven't seen an advantage over anyone. New update being released! Have to see what that brings, I am hopeful for better performance as Zup says it makes the bombs lighter.
You know what would be cool is if our wreckage remained on the battlefield till the end of the game, smoldering tanks and planes littering the landscape would give an idea of how intense the battle was!

pmoon1{WP***} wrote: I am a tilt player and really haven't seen an advantage over anyone. New update being released! Have to see what that brings, I am hopeful for better performance as Zup says it makes the bombs lighter.
You know what would be cool is if our wreckage remained on the battlefield till the end of the game, smoldering tanks and planes littering the landscape would give an idea of how intense the battle was!

I'm a tilt player and feel at a big disadvantage head on - I can barely land any hits despite the bullets seeming to go in the right place - but as soon as things get close in, I can mix it. One thing I've noticed is that compared with DF1, I hardly get any wing hits head on - it's either fuselage or not at all. The aircraft is so sluggish in fine adjustment that by the time you have the machine lined up, you're dead. I have an inkling PC players have an advantage here, but it's hard to tell.

I'm getting a bit sick of getting blown out of the sky before landing a single hit. I really enjoyed my first few Elite games, but right now it's dull. Even more dominated by the laser beams. Just played a game with out of control against NL.R and Bluefighter, and got massacred. I may have still been massacred in DF1 but I'm pretty sure I would have been massacred about 1/3 as much.

And yet as soon as I get a chance at a deflection shot, the game comes alive.

pmoon1{WP***} wrote: I am a tilt player and really haven't seen an advantage over anyone. New update being released! Have to see what that brings, I am hopeful for better performance as Zup says it makes the bombs lighter.
You know what would be cool is if our wreckage remained on the battlefield till the end of the game, smoldering tanks and planes littering the landscape would give an idea of how intense the battle was!

There would be so many smouldering Cyphers littering the battle field. OOOOOhh the humanity LMAO

pmoon1{WP***} wrote: I am a tilt player and really haven't seen an advantage over anyone. New update being released! Have to see what that brings, I am hopeful for better performance as Zup says it makes the bombs lighter.
You know what would be cool is if our wreckage remained on the battlefield till the end of the game, smoldering tanks and planes littering the landscape would give an idea of how intense the battle was!

If you haven't seen an advantage, you sure haven't flown against me. I get out turned by lower tier aircraft consistently. I find it hard to believe I am that bad once it comes to actual aerial combat.

I have noticed that with bombs I have to continue to trim the elevators up to keep from losing altitude, and without bombs the aircraft will achieve level flight at max power and without input from me, which is different than df1.

Cundall wrote: I'm a tilt player and feel at a big disadvantage head on - I can barely land any hits despite the bullets seeming to go in the right place - but as soon as things get close in, I can mix it. One thing I've noticed is that compared with DF1, I hardly get any wing hits head on - it's either fuselage or not at all. The aircraft is so sluggish in fine adjustment that by the time you have the machine lined up, you're dead. I have an inkling PC players have an advantage here, but it's hard to tell.

I'm getting a bit sick of getting blown out of the sky before landing a single hit. I really enjoyed my first few Elite games, but right now it's dull. Even more dominated by the laser beams. Just played a game with out of control against NL.R and Bluefighter, and got massacred. I may have still been massacred in DF1 but I'm pretty sure I would have been massacred about 1/3 as much.

And yet as soon as I get a chance at a deflection shot, the game comes alive.

No advantage for PC players here, Cundall; the nature of keyboard steering tends to cause "oversteering" when aiming, and most PC joysticks 1.) only emulate keyboard arrow commands, and 2.) have an ugly dead zone at the middle of their pattern.
.

I have those same issues and I'm a tilt player.

Hey guys, who is this 562|vip(chat off) ? He seems to be able to out fly just about anyone in the games I have seen him in while still carrying bombs, he is a major camper too. He is a level 32 yet when I click on his name in the roster of on line players the information is blank like he doesn't exist. He is such a pain in the backside that when he joins a game I am in I will leave.

pmoon1{WP***} wrote: Hey guys, who is this 562|vip(chat off) ? He seems to be able to out fly just about anyone in the games I have seen him in while still carrying bombs, he is a major camper too. He is a level 32 yet when I click on his name in the roster of on line players the information is blank like he doesn't exist. He is such a pain in the backside that when he joins a game I am in I will leave.

Every one leaves when they see this joker

pmoon1{WP***} wrote: Hey guys, who is this 562|vip(chat off) ? He seems to be able to out fly just about anyone in the games I have seen him in while still carrying bombs, he is a major camper too. He is a level 32 yet when I click on his name in the roster of on line players the information is blank like he doesn't exist. He is such a pain in the backside that when he joins a game I am in I will leave.

Yep and he claims that we all just don't know how to play. Ok well he uses other "colorful" phrases than that.

Sounds like tailzz,vip who I believe has been removed from the forum. I can't find him on here anyhow.

A further observation. During a CTF game last night with WW2 aircraft, it was two on two, my teammate was a very good player in DF1, and our opposition one very good DF1 player who I've seen more on Elite recently, and another high rated player I haven't encountered before.

It started reasonably even. Then, the opposition just started killing us. We both died every time barely getting a single hit in. Straight in and snipe or manouevre and avoid, the result was the same. The scores showed both the opposition players with distinctly positive KDRs for that game, and distinctly negative KDRs for me and my teammate. I've never seen anything quite like it. And the worst thing is, I don't know if it was some issue with the game or whether our opposition just found some kind of sweet spot. If it was just me, I'd guess the latter, but the fact that my top class teammate was suffering almost as badly as me suggested perhaps the former. Anyone else encountered anything like this? It felt as though the Blue aircraft were just too sluggish both to aim fast enough or manouevre fast enough.

It would have been slightly more even, as on a handful of occasions one of us managed to avoid getting snipe-killed long enough to get into a turn fight, where I think we just about had the edge. I certainly would have got another three or four kills but each time after I had scored several hits, my opponent flew into the ground. I don't know if this was an accident or the old Black Devil Bubi KDR saving stunt.

I think I have experienced that before but not on a team basis that I have noticed.
I have had the experience of being left as the only player on my side as the other team fills up with very good players and not getting a team mate till the other team has been filled up.

pmoon1{WP***} wrote: I think I have experienced that before but not on a team basis that I have noticed.
I have had the experience of being left as the only player on my side as the other team fills up with very good players and not getting a team mate till the other team has been filled up.

Yes, the team filling has been very uneven, just like in the old days in legacy DF. Zup sorted that out and I've no doubt he can sort this out too. It's not too surprising to see the problems that used to afflict DF cropping up in Elite - it's the new problems I'm more concerned about.