Welcome back Cundall!

I used to share your view on many of the topics mentioned. Recent thoughts and experiences have changed my mind on some. The only thing I still really take exception to is spawnkilling. Below is my soliloquy on camping from a previous thread.

To Camp Or Not To Camp (act 3 scene 1)

McFate wrote: To camp, or not to camp: that is the question:

Whether ’tis nobler after bombing to turn tail,
To flee the pursuit of outraged defenders,
Or to take arms against a sea of reds!
And by opposing end them? To stay; to kill?
To compliment my approaching team,
Or should teammate bombers face reds alone,
To die at the last hill with bomb still clutched,
Devoutly wish’d to have been delivered
While my potential aid denied? There’s the rub;

For in hasty retreat what good did come?
When I left, my team abandoned to their toil;
Must give me pause: Where’s the respect?
Why should I seek of so long life;
For would I then bomb the red hangars in time?
Is it wrong, the proud man’s retreat?

But for the pangs of reds despise, taunts of dishonor,
The insolence of accusations and the spurns
A patient response, unworthy of my thought.
While red himself should hold his tongue.
Lest I remove it at spawn with a bare bodkin!

To grunt and sweat through a weary flight,
Only to dread of something besides my death;
The scorn of players, fair though their cause,
Doth confine the scope of worthy play
Makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than to fly as best we all might strive.
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus with grim hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
'tis bane to inspired gamers play.

With this regard my interests turn away,
From former restrictions of game play past.
Now to the sky as Pheonix reborn!
Beware all reds! My conflict is gone!

Nice pastiche McFate, I like it! You have a poet's soul.

I think there's a fine line with camping. As with much in life, context is key. All anyone wants is a fair crack of the whip. If you're badly outnumbered, trying to level up the score a little before the inevitable defeat, there's nothing worse than a MORAF circling above your hangars pumping you full of lead as soon as you could get a cigarette paper between wheels and ground. On the other hand, if the game's evenly matched, and has been going on for ages, see-sawing back and forth, then staying in the target zone for a little while to help your team strike is fair enough. As I see elsewhere, there is a new and by no means universally accepted sin of 'sneaking', which I think it taking things too far.

The question I'd like everyone to ask themselves is: am I playing hard, or am I just stopping the opposition from playing at all? And if the answer is the latter, then there's something wrong.

PS, shooting at someone who has bombed and is trying to get away is really stupid because you're just giving them a licence to turn around and knock you down. Yet it can be so very, very tempting in the moment.

Cundall wrote:
I think there's a fine line with camping. As with much in life, context is key....

The question I'd like everyone to ask themselves is: am I playing hard, or am I just stopping the opposition from playing at all? And if the answer is the latter, then there's something wrong.

Absolutely! Context is key.

My posts from a few months ago reflect a bit of a bildungsroman. I actually ended up leaving my original squad and going solo for a while. Part of the story is in this thread:

Complaining about droppers? STFU!

My position in that thread can largly be summed up by one post:

McFate wrote: To be clear, I'm not necessarily advocating dropping, sneaking or camping.

I'm saying that the complaining is worse than the deed!

I don't like the game play in a bombing game when everyone ends up dropping and the bombing game becomes just dogfighting, but a well planned attack with bombers and escorts is pretty impressive.

I don't like when sneaks make it in to bomb my hangars but I have fun patrolling for them. I do, however, remember the thrill of sneaking in a bomb against MORAFs when I was a level 10. Still didn't get in more than 50% of the time. I loved patrolling when I knew it was about "MAGIC TIME"

I don't like it when campers hang on my base and make it so I can't defend against incoming bombers, but I love taking out campers. Especially the spawnkilling variety.

I don't like it when I go 1 vs 7 and get my butt handed to me, but I love it when I make it cost the reds dearly.

Basically, I guess I like the challenge of this game and all the knuckleheads with all their different styles. There are a few that can ruin a game but for the most part I like a good fight. I even like an "unfair" fight as long as I'm on the receiving end and can give them some bloody noses as they throw me out the door head first. I don't like sticking around on the heavy side of a mismatch and usually only do when I've already been in the game for a while.

What I don't like is the complaining. I've complained about some other pilots in the past but I find that I get excited when they spawn in as red. I have found that I like the thrill of the entanglement and seek those who give me trouble (tactically speaking). Having kids who also play this game, I can't stand the abusive players picking on lower ranks but even that isn't as bad as having my 11 year old go in for a successful sneak and have high ranks call him a coward. Or dropping his bomb so he can actually fly against camels and d8s and a blue admonishes him like he is doing something to somehow ruin the game for everyone else. It's Bull Sht.

What the hell are people so upset about that they want to berate other players for? STFU and play the game. Complain to your pet, wife, or whoever. If you don't like the freedom that the game has provided to match skills and tactics against skills and tactics then be on your way, please. If you want to scrap, I'll see you in the skies.

My response to complainers:

"STFU"

Shortly after that, Luna authored her thoughtful piece:

The dogfight Meta
(To date the first post has received 30 thank yous)

It begins:

Luna wrote:

Metagame (n)

The highest level of strategy in many complex games, metagame refers to any aspect of strategy that involves thinking about what your opponent is thinking you are thinking.

Metagame comes into play in any game where no single strategy is dominant and opposing sides are aware of multiple strategies that can succeed dependent upon opponents' actions. In order to perform at the highest level, it then becomes necessary to think about what your opponent thinks you will do (which may depend on what he thinks you think he thinks he will do, etc.) and to make decisions based on clues regarding what level they are thinking on.

---

Both of these threads received a lot of varied input and I believe they may have a good bit to answer for your questions:

Cundall wrote: Dogfight used to be a game with a code, where certain behaviours were not acceptable...
What happened to you people? You just care about points and ranking up these days?

I think that while; as a result, some players have moved toward expanding the game possibilities, others may have fallen back to a more selfish playing style. Myself? I joined the New Lunar Republic in an effort to help to revitalize the squad. It has worked very well so far. We are now focusing on playing as a team, utilizing many tactics (including dropping, sneaking and camping) to win games instead of just playing as individual fighters. The greatest trouble we seem to have is finding worthy opponents.


Anyway, great to see you back. I'm looking forward to your next book!

Luna should come up with an "ism" for those who follow the metagame wisdom. Followers can add a little symbol of some kind to mark their beliefs. A squad among squads if you will.

H.L.Finn wrote: Luna should come up with an "ism" for those who follow the metagame wisdom. Followers can add a little symbol of some kind to mark their beliefs. A squad among squads if you will.

How about:

=*=

Some further observations now I've been back a bit longer...

I think a lot of the problems come down to the very uneven team splits we tend to get. I was playing a bomb the base game this evening when I was the sole blue. I was late into the game and I got monstered. I could barely get off the deck. I shut up and tried to get on with it, and a very kind red swapped teams. Good on that man. I still lost but it was a bit less like punishment for its own sake.

The next game, bomb the carrier, I happened to be on the stronger side. It wasn't that much stronger, maybe 4-2 most of the time (these things have an ebb and flow as people leave and join) and the 'weaker' side comprised a MORAF and another fairly senior player, while the 'stronger' side had more but slightly less senior players. We were having a tough time getting past their defence and while they actually managed to score the first hit on our carrier, we had them pressed back to defending theirs after a while. I was getting shot to bits by two skilled players who had dropped their bombs so had the benefit of greater speed and agility. So I went high. One of them was waiting for me, but I managed to hit the carrier anyway. A bit later I tried again and hit once more, and later still someone else had a go. One of the reds started branding us 'chickenshit'. I complimented them on their fine defence that meant we had to explore alternative tactics, but maintained that it was legit.

A bit later, a couple of blues left and a whole heap of reds joined. Now we were up against it. The red who had complained now sat above our carrier, having dumped his bomb early, and gleefully shot us up as we took off. Now I gather this is no longer called 'camping' but 'cover'. They made short work of us, and said Red made a few gloating comments before the matter was settled.

Now this long and rambling tale has a moral. It was the complaining, then retaliating in kind, then gloating that was so ugly, more than anyone's individual tactics. I mean, if you're going to complain, at least try and retain the moral high ground! Otherwise you're both a whiner AND a hypocrite. I get how frustrating it is to be hard pressed and have the numbers against you, and I get how easy it is to let off a bit of steam in the comments, but in a game like Dogfight, the tables can turn in an instant.

A bit of grace wouldn't go amiss. I'll try to remember that in the air.

A word for planetrider - a fearsome opponent who is also a through gentleman. Oh for more like him

Hello Cundall , are you talking about games like this? How many you want to see a have least 4 doz. i feel your pain:))i got banned for this look like for life because after a while a jumped on players and told them where to go.) Good luck

Yup, that's pretty much it! As I just said to a MORAF who was gunning me down in cold blood 'you want a game or a whitewash?' These people are in a strong position to win without spawnkilling, so why do they do it? It cheapens the game.

Cundall wrote: Dogfight used to be a game with a code, where certain behaviours were not acceptable. I've just been in two games where very senior players have in one case sat at the enemy airfield to attack the sole player on the other team (very unbalanced teams these days) and in another case seemingly delighted in racking up points against others by shooting them up on the runway and not even letting them get into the air. When I played this game in the past, behaviour like this was discouraged. Senior players tried to help newer players get to grips with it, and where teams were very uneven, you'd see people on the stronger team logging out and back in again to get onto the weaker team. Today I saw someone do the opposite!

What happened to you people? You just care about points and ranking up these days?

Lol I feel ya sir, but at d same time I sort of like it, being uneven and having a challenge is nice, but that's just me, but whenever I see a team uneven I ALWAYS switch no matter how long it takes..ask HB and plenty of other GI pilots, they know..

Cundall wrote: Yup, that's pretty much it! As I just said to a MORAF who was gunning me down in cold blood 'you want a game or a whitewash?' These people are in a strong position to win without spawnkilling, so why do they do it? It cheapens the game.

I switch on many occasions...that being said, on many occasions, I've switched and watched my teammate leave...if course, I never know if they quit our got dc.

Bump

Calvin y did u say bump I just wanna know lol

Bumping the thread to the front of the forum without making people bother to read anything I say.