Dogfight used to be a game with a code, where certain behaviours were not acceptable. I've just been in two games where very senior players have in one case sat at the enemy airfield to attack the sole player on the other team (very unbalanced teams these days) and in another case seemingly delighted in racking up points against others by shooting them up on the runway and not even letting them get into the air. When I played this game in the past, behaviour like this was discouraged. Senior players tried to help newer players get to grips with it, and where teams were very uneven, you'd see people on the stronger team logging out and back in again to get onto the weaker team. Today I saw someone do the opposite!

What happened to you people? You just care about points and ranking up these days?

Good! We need more players like you.

That's actually the best response I could have hoped for... In the game I was basically accused of whining. It's good this is taken seriously.

When I used to belong to a squad, the squad had a code of conduct. I was disheartened to see that one of the people I felt was unrepentantly badly behaving belonged to one of the best squads. I hope this sort of thing isn't condoned. Surely the squads should have a role in promoting gentlemanly conduct.

The squad codes have not gone away. It is an honour to fly "Air Enigma" for example and I am sure you would have a pleasant flight as well.

The squad codes have not gone away. It is an honour to fly "Air Enigma" for example and I am sure you would have a pleasant flight as well.

That's good to hear Shadow. Maybe I just had a bad day!

Many squads do have an honor code. I observe the code as set by the Misfits. In a lopsided game, I'll bomb and fly away unless a red is in front of me or shooting. Only other time I turn around is to help a bomber (if I have ammo and in radar range) it is very rare I do that as I'm usually out of ammo when I bomb. At any rate, I leave the area. If there is one red, I don't turn around...incoming bombers can take care of that.

Yes I've noticed that the number of players camping has increased, including those in the top 100. Many still fly fair. I only camp on fools who swear or act up in game (i.e. I camp on them but don't shoot their teammates).

I find once you bomb the base/boat, its usually not that hard to get away, and the poor rank 7 player who is facing me appreciates the chance to get up and try to take me on in a fair fight. I'd rather have a few extra deaths and get the new players to establish themselves in game, than rack up cheap kills

Hmm, I wonder if the Law of Entropy applies to communities as it does with closed thermodynamic systems.

That, and Murphy's Law. Better do something about it, guys!

[TFL] The Foreign Legion, still fly with honour and dignity. Anyone with these values will be welcome to join us anytime...

Hi Cundall, good to see you back. How is the new book coming along? Its true that there is much more poor behavior in the game these days and it is disappointing. I believe it is a result of many of the old line players no longer in the game. The new players are not learning the proper way to way in the beginning. I think that started with the segregated servers. As for the more experienced players, there was probably a tendency to bad behavior all along just that it shows more at higher rank. Anyhooo, good to see you back.

Thanks all, I'm glad there are others who care about playing the game for the game's sake. I've seen that some of the old hands are no longer around. I appreciate there was always bad behaviour, it's just that it would generally be challenged in game. There are always going to be grey areas, especially during stalemate games, but these were games with a phalanx of reds and only one or two blues. There's just no need to cheat to win! I was just told not to be a sore losser (sic).

I don't doubt there's a law of entropy with communities. Hence a need for constant renewal. Perhaps it would help to have a 'renewal of vows'.

Good to be remembered TR, thanks. The new book is coming along very well - I've got about 100,000 words down, and am doing a course to help me hone it. It should be of interest to Dogfight players I think, as it's based around the NAA A-36 squadrons in Italy in 1943-44.

In any event, I can't deny that all in all, it's good to be back

It chaps me too, Cundall. It's all these damn whipper snappers playing my beloved game!! I hate campers! They need to get off my damn lawn!! In all seriousness, it just takes a few good established players on the same team as the offender speaking nicely to them. Welcome back!

Not everyone is in a squad with a code, and each person is different. If I'm coming in with a bomb, I'm raking you on the runway, no apologies. There are no published rules of behavior, so your definition of "bad" behavior is subjective to how YOU think the game should be played. I agree for the most part, but others don't, and I respect their interpretation as much as yours.

I was in a game the other day when a red asked us to tell a blue team mate to stop sneaking as we had numbers. I don't tell other people, how to play, I responded. "Not when their on your side" was the reply. No, not ever. I'm not anyone's warden, hall monitor, or first sergeant. Not anymore.

If there are no established rules in the game, and there aren't, you can't expect to tell anyone else how to conduct themselves.

I respectfully disagree there, Longrifle. Rules and norms are different things. While there are no rules in DF (you can do whatever the program allows you too) there are norms of behavior like courtesy, no spawn killing, and no profanity to name a few. We have all seen the drama of subjective enforcement by mods. However, peer pressure from established players and internal squad practices have gone along way to keep the game enjoyable and establish some good norms. YOu are right that you cannot tell people how to play, but you can certainly exert some influence and "lead" newer players to respecting our norms within the established DF community. Just my $.02 actually worth $.00000048986 due to inflation...

Longrifle wrote: Not everyone is in a squad with a code, and each person is different. If I'm coming in with a bomb, I'm raking you on the runway, no apologies. There are no published rules of behavior, so your definition of "bad" behavior is subjective to how YOU think the game should be played. I agree for the most part, but others don't, and I respect their interpretation as much as yours.

I was in a game the other day when a red asked us to tell a blue team mate to stop sneaking as we had numbers. I don't tell other people, how to play, I responded. "Not when their on your side" was the reply. No, not ever. I'm not anyone's warden, hall monitor, or first sergeant. Not anymore.

If there are no established rules in the game, and there aren't, you can't expect to tell anyone else how to conduct themselves.

I don't know you in game! BUT Good post sir.

Norms would imply there is a group holding similar beliefs. I've seen enough advanced level players that use suppressive fire tactics to win games or just run up thier scores to know there is no group norm here in the virtual sky. Even the creator told him he didn't mind an occasional FU on the chat, so where do you think these norms are developed?

Camping and spawnkilling are tactics to some, and they won't be convinced otherwise by peer pressure. When I had the crappy red baron I couldn't stand twirlers that would approach unscathed, get behind me and then lean on their mechanical advantage to win a turn fight. Poor form? Who's to decide? Are there any Dogfight judges out there?

I fight how I like to fight, slug it out and punch 'em in the face style. In a real fight I would never lead with my chin like that. If there ever is a squad wars where only wins count, I'm playing a different style.

Aaahhhh....Matt,

It's great to see a man with your class back in the game.

I can't wait to dive into your next tome.
The first was excellent. "MAGIC TIME!"
I've been patiently awaiting your second's arrival. Now, I've become impatient with anticipation.

I'll never be a MORAF.
I still switch to help the underdog.
I don't hustle free points.
And, still play "Sky Chess" and getting grief.

When we get to fly together soon with the "old folks".....it'll be MAGIC TIME again and our collective disappointment will disappear.
There's some "new folks" here now that exemplify fair play.
You'll discover them soon.
The "others"......sooner.

Welcome back friend,
Paul

Longrifle wrote: Norms would imply there is a group holding similar beliefs. I've seen enough advanced level players that use suppressive fire tactics to win games or just run up thier scores to know there is no group norm here in the virtual sky. Even the creator told him he didn't mind an occasional FU on the chat, so where do you think these norms are developed?

Camping and spawnkilling are tactics to some, and they won't be convinced otherwise by peer pressure. When I had the crappy red baron I couldn't stand twirlers that would approach unscathed, get behind me and then lean on their mechanical advantage to win a turn fight. Poor form? Who's to decide? Are there any Dogfight judges out there?

I fight how I like to fight, slug it out and punch 'em in the face style. In a real fight I would never lead with my chin like that. If there ever is a squad wars where only wins count, I'm playing a different style.

I do practice suppressive fire when coming in to bomb...if I'm lucky...but I don't hang out and pad stats...now if I get shot at...game on. Lol

[*M]ONSTER CANNON wrote:

Longrifle wrote: Norms would imply there is a group holding similar beliefs. I've seen enough advanced level players that use suppressive fire tactics to win games or just run up thier scores to know there is no group norm here in the virtual sky. Even the creator told him he didn't mind an occasional FU on the chat, so where do you think these norms are developed?

Camping and spawnkilling are tactics to some, and they won't be convinced otherwise by peer pressure. When I had the crappy red baron I couldn't stand twirlers that would approach unscathed, get behind me and then lean on their mechanical advantage to win a turn fight. Poor form? Who's to decide? Are there any Dogfight judges out there?

I fight how I like to fight, slug it out and punch 'em in the face style. In a real fight I would never lead with my chin like that. If there ever is a squad wars where only wins count, I'm playing a different style.

I do practice suppressive fire when coming in to bomb...if I'm lucky...but I don't hang out and pad stats...now if I get shot at...game on. Lol

You practice suppresive fire all over the field

Longrifle wrote:

[*M]ONSTER CANNON wrote:

Longrifle wrote: Norms would imply there is a group holding similar beliefs. I've seen enough advanced level players that use suppressive fire tactics to win games or just run up thier scores to know there is no group norm here in the virtual sky. Even the creator told him he didn't mind an occasional FU on the chat, so where do you think these norms are developed?

Camping and spawnkilling are tactics to some, and they won't be convinced otherwise by peer pressure. When I had the crappy red baron I couldn't stand twirlers that would approach unscathed, get behind me and then lean on their mechanical advantage to win a turn fight. Poor form? Who's to decide? Are there any Dogfight judges out there?

I fight how I like to fight, slug it out and punch 'em in the face style. In a real fight I would never lead with my chin like that. If there ever is a squad wars where only wins count, I'm playing a different style.

I do practice suppressive fire when coming in to bomb...if I'm lucky...but I don't hang out and pad stats...now if I get shot at...game on. Lol

You practice suppresive fire all over the field

Lol..have to admit that made me laugh...think my plane has a mind all.of its own

1. be prepared to be disappointed by many DF people.....
2. be prepared not to be disappointed by me
3. wassup.....lets fly sometime.....

Hey Cundall,

I wonder if it is the same pilot that did this to me tonite. I took a screen shot of this pilot sitting behind me waiting for me to get air born. I posted on the Blacklist Thread. Check it out and let me know. Anyway, Icouldnot agree with you more. Good job for bringing this up.

Esto es para longrifle el mierda es usted.yo no he insultao a nadie usted siempre, que.yo sepa siempre as volado sin bomba y has hecho lo peor de lo peor que dices hacen otros.no es un ejemplo para nadie.cada cual utiliza la manera que quiere y punto.si uno vuela mejor sin bomba esta en su derecho atacar sin ellas al igual que los cara a cara, cada uno puede.hacer lo que quiera lo unico no matar en aeropuerto con tanque, nada mas.en cuanto a.pilotos que dan ejemplo....hay muchos aun yo juego pendando en ganar la mision unas veces hago mas puntos y otras al reves, pero utilizare cualquier tactica que me pueda dar la victoria, siempre desde el respeto que.quede claro hay muchps pilotos que medicen que soy muy buen jugador algunos me llaman maestro siempre con respeto mutuo claro esta.debemos y podemos hacer mas...y todo esta en nosotros en nuestras manos.un saludo y bienvenido cundall.

This is to longrifle usted.yo the fuck is anyone insultao have not you always, to my knowledge have always flown without pump and have done the worst of the worst I say make an example for otros.no which uses nadie.cada punto.si way you want and no one flies better bomb attack is his right as without them face to face, everyone can do what you want him not to kill at the airport only to tank, because he has nothing more.In the pilots that exemplify many .... I play even thinking about winning the mission sometimes I do more and other points backwards, but has used every tactic you can give me the victory, always respect it is clear there are many pilots I say I'm really good player some call me master always with mutual respect and clear esta.debemos can do more ... and all this in us in our salute and welcome manos.un Cundall.

Rojo, my Spanish proficiency is too low, and the Google translate is not good enough for me to understand the overall point you are making.

I have cleaned it up below, removing the extra periods, which are messing up the google transalation, and making correections where i can, but I still can not figure out the theme. Sorry. I assume pump is bomb, and that you are saying you don't fly with one.

This is to longrifle the fuck are you I have not insulted anyone you forever, I will always know as flown without pump and have done the worst of the worst that you say others do is not an example for anyone everyone uses the way you want point and if one flies better without pump is his right to attack without them as well as face to face, everyone can do what you want him not to kill at the airport only to tank, nothing else about pilots who set the example, there I play many still win the mission pendando sometimes do more and other points backwards, but has used any tactic that can give me the victory, always respect it is clear there are many drivers who Medicen I'm very good player some call me teacher always with mutual respect is clear and we can do more, and everything is in our hands us a greeting and welcome Cundall.

You and I have always had good games together; when I see you in red I'm always up for the challenge. If I see you without a pump, I'm dumping my pump as well.

Ok longrifle si no me insulto, disculpe.si nos vemos pues que gane el mejor o el que mejor dia tenga.(que cada uno juegue como pueda con bomba o sin ella) por mi parte con usted todo correcto un saludo, espero no tener ningun malentendido mas con usted.un saludo.

Ok longrifle if I do not insult, disculpe.si as we are the best team win or be the best day. (Each play as you can with or without a pump) on my part right with you all greetings, I hope not to have any misunderstanding but with usted.un greeting.

Cundall:

Nice post. I appreciate the thoughtful content and sincere tone. More than just questionable game play, the forum has lost a certain appeal to me as well. Interesting posts are too few and far between.

Well, since posting this I've enjoyed a number of very good games, and the odd run-in with the camping SOB who kicked off this whole tirade. Earlier tonight I came out of a bomb the hangars game with a senior ranked player who, despite being on the side with overwhelming numbers (6-2) insisted on buzzing around in the rough vicinity of the blue base, shooting down any blue who got close and clearing a very effective path for his own team. I took this as tantamount to camping (he could have got away really quite easily) and asked him to stop. Answer: 'no'. He was good enough that he could have had a good game while playing by the spirit, so I don't see why he had to lower himself to a turkey shoot.

Sigh.