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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199306

  • Luna
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Metagame (n)

The highest level of strategy in many complex games, metagame refers to any aspect of strategy that involves thinking about what your opponent is thinking you are thinking.

Metagame comes into play in any game where no single strategy is dominant and opposing sides are aware of multiple strategies that can succeed dependent upon opponents' actions. In order to perform at the highest level, it then becomes necessary to think about what your opponent thinks you will do (which may depend on what he thinks you think he thinks he will do, etc.) and to make decisions based on clues regarding what level they are thinking on.



It’s not a wonder why people get so antsy when you don’t play the game their way. It seems everyone's screaming about droppers and whatever, this way and that. But the truth is, every person has their own particular playstyle, and nobody likes to lose. Those are facts. When either of those two points get assaulted, people will get angry.

I’m going to echo a previous post here (#199025, fantastic words, Wig) and say; we need to start looking at Dogfight and its gameplay in a different way. You see, in many other multiplayer games (notably more strategic games), each playstyle has strengths, and weaknesses (and a “counter” who can take advantages of those weaknesses with their own strengths). In a good and well thought-out game, nothing is equal and everything is balanced.

Bear with me...

Take the simple game of rock-paper-scissors. Paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper. We all know the rules. Each choice is different, but everything is fair, and there is absolutely no room to complain. Now let’s take that simple concept and expand it to a larger and more complex scale; like say... a multiplayer WWI dogfight simulator.

If it were perfect, it could look something like this.


An Ideal Meta

Light Plane
Strengths: Fast, Agile fighter. Dominates in high numbers and close range.
Weaknesses: Low ammunition capacity, low HP, and lowest effective range. Ineffective against ground targets.

Medium Plane
Strengths: Can take on targets at a good range. Multi-capable fighter/bomber, with good HP.
Weaknesses: Less agile than lighter planes at close ranges. Limited bombing capability.

Heavy Plane
Strengths: Can decimate ground targets. High HP and ammunition capacity. Longest effective range.
Weaknesses: Low speed and agility.

With a good look and some careful thinking, one can see how this can balance out. You can play whichever playstyle you want, and you can’t complain because there is a counter to everything. With good teamwork and coordination, you can make any game interesting and engaging. But with the actual Dogfight we have now, it’s more like this:

Dogfight's Current Meta

Bomb-Holders
Strengths: Can bomb and shoot, multiple capability.
Weaknesses: Slow and less agile.

Bomb-Droppers
Strengths: Fast, agile fighter.
Weaknesses: Cannot bomb targets.

So, what do we have here? Two incomplete roles/playstyles, and lots of possibilities of imbalances. Don’t forget about the different airplanes, all of which have different stats and sizes, but yet the same mechanics (all can bomb and shoot [a super-slim plane that can do the same thing as a fatter plane, what?]). What does this encourage within the playerbase? Mindless shooting.

It turns into a game where everyone is under the illusion that all players are equal in playstyle (because of the game’s mechanics, they almost are), so if someone tries to break the currently perceived metagame (which is ridiculously simple), people will get angry. “This is OP, that is unfair, this is dumb, etc...”

Until the game developers, or the players, start changing how the game is; which is seeing that it is perfectly possible and even more so plausible for people to play differently; then this issue will never be solved. Yes, the game is still improving, but we need to make the best with what we have. Bomb dropping isn’t cheating, it’s a counter, an answer to a problem in game; much like sneaking, corkscrewing, and other frowned-upon practices. It’s an attempt to make the game more dynamic and interesting, because the current meta only offers rock and paper, but no scissors.

All of us need to ask ourselves: Is Dogfight going to be a diverse and interesting game; or are the very players going to force it into another mindless COD clone, where everyone plays the same and the person that wins is the one who simply moves faster?

And finally, for the developers: How much are you willing to sacrifice realism for balance? Someone needs to bring out the nerf guns and the buff pads, and soon.

-Luna
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Last edit: by Luna.

The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199307

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Well said Luna!
(Whatever we pay you; it's not enough.)

There is still a lot of unexplored potential in Gretchland. B)


"If the game was supposed to only play head-on, then Zup would have designed the map like this-" -LF Killer


With "team chat" there could be far greater coordination within a team. The potential strategies are endless.
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Last edit: by [NLR] McFate.

The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199309

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Way to go luna! I was going to post somthing similar baut not nearly as well worded, excellent job!

I was going to make a golf comparison. For exapmle, personally I don't care if sombody wants to play in the rough or bounce the ball off of trees, if the make it to the cup in less shots then I will congratulate them for their skill. People who hate on sneakers want to have a lower ceiling and a smaller map (or better radar, as if this was available at all in WW1.) Do you think anyone would complain about sneakers or droppers if we had no radar and no screen names shown? Maybe then people would realize that you have to have bombers and interceptors to adequately attack and defend at the same time.
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Last edit: by [NLR]Jacob10000.

The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199355

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I remember when I have played vs evermec and others reds in a bombing mission. I drop and I was trying to hold them. But evermec, even whit the bomb, shootme so many fu...k.. times !! Then I see he always stay far form the combat, and shootme whit very long shootings. Be a droper, and obviously for that pilots who only do head to head, it's no a big advantage. All styles have strength and weakness.
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199359

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I love postings like this. Articles/essays verse rants. Thoughtful and engaging. Well done!
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199405

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Beautifully done, Luna. Add this to my dream list of what should be required reading, along with SB467's guide to dogfighting and McFate's recent anti-anti-dropper post.

Wigipedia
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199411

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Well said Luna.

I'm a scissors guy, and I hate it when someone goes all rock on me.
:P
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199415

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Outstanding Luna. You never cease to wow me.


Think you're going Crazy? Great! When you get there look me up and I'll show you around.
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199420

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One of the main reasons I got hooked on this game, was the tact and stratagies. Over the last few months it has gotten to the point of "If you don't fly up the center at 500 ft and die the way we tell you to. We are going to do our best to have your license to fly revoked"!

I used to get the biggest kick out FLYMAGIC dropping his famous line "magic time" as he drop from the ceiling, in for a bomb run!!!!! You used to have to think so much more about who you were up against and what there favorite stratigies are. I think the mindless head on, over and over and over. Has gotten me burned out on the game a bit.

I am however, very glad you took the time to post such a wonderful piece, on how much more fun this game can be. If we all don't try and force everyone else to die the way we want them to....
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Last edit: by YEMX.

The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199425

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voy a escribir en español, por favor que alguien me lo traduzca gracias!! lo primero dar las gracias a luna fate y demas compañeros que se divierten jugando.este tema esta ya mas que hablado .yo he tenido peleas, que.por.suerte habia pilotos de habla hispana.con lo cual podia seguir una estratejia, y vaya si he ganado partidas asi, divirtiendome. (piloto tal dede arriba, o bordea el aeropuerto, o 2 sin bomba? (estoy haciendo algo malo? es o no es un juego? deverdad creeis que cuando estas cara a cara es mas facil de llegar? no habeis pensado que casi siempre hay pilotos qe no llevan bomba y que te protejen para que llegues?yo creo que hay muchos pilotos que no dominan volar sin la bomba, y se encuentran mas agusto cara a cara, y para lucirse en posts.y subir en muertes , todo es.respetable, pero lo que no puede ser es no ser tolerante con los demas pilotos porque no entran en su juego, en.su circulo.aver? no se hacen mas.muertes sin bomba? entonces por que cara a cara.ellos dicen que.asi es mas.justo noo falso. (es mas.justo y no es por nada como elnotro dia yo utilizar a mi equipo para derrotar a hulk doggs y algun moraf mas con todo lo qe teniamos a mano. (por qe nos tildan de goteros, droper y otras lindezas?....pues por.qe les.jode perder les jode qe le quites su protagonismo, el ego les puede.luego lo publican en menfist o algo asi el bueno de mi amigo hulk .como no podian aguantar mas con goteros droper snaker.ect ect (hechadle un vistazo en su pagina y lo.vereis) no es justo, ya sabia que lo iba a publicar...exacto al dia siguiente ya habia subido la captura.pero sabeis lo que mas.me gusto aparte de derrotarlos le.dimos una buena jaja.pues que los chavales cuando le ganamos a hulk y los.otros reian super alegres estaban felices me.dieron las.gracias fue algo realmente bonito.aqui hay reglas? por que tengo que seguir el juego a unos cuantos? nooo lo divertido es hacer.cosas diferentes, cuando logras el objetivo sientes una alegria inmensa.sigamos disfrutando seguiran lloriqueando, que se jodan, seguiran criticando..que se jodan (os pido una cosa no entreis en su juego, es lo.que ellos quieren y de mi no lo tendran)los freire y tendran que buscar otra pantalla como muchas veces hacen jajajaja.quiero acabar diciendo que el super es un genio, el es el que mejor sabe lo que el juego necesita, el lo.creo para que disfrutasemos de el, no para hacer un monopolio de.una manera determinada de jugar.quiero que todos voleis libres y disfruteis de este juego inigualable que cada mision sea algo bonito, no una discusion, que sea un entrenamiento para coger mas experiencia y ganancias, que cada mision la hagamos diferente para no convertir dogfight en algo monotono y aburrido (no es mas.feliz el que mas puntos consigue...sino el que para conseguirlos disfruta cada momento..de.cada mision de.cada montaña del.sol, las nubes, la lluvia, los.valles los lagos las.sensaciones, esas maravillosas sensaciones.un abrazo a todos amigos.

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199431

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I think you made a good point Luna.
Now can you simplify it so I too can understand it? :pinch:
Don´t live life faster then your guardian angel can fly
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199450

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Baron Rojo's post translated, for the most part:
I will write in Spanish, please someone translate me thanks! I first thank fate moon and other colleagues having fun jugando.este topic is already more than spoken.'ve had fights, pilots had que.por.suerte hispana.con speech which could follow a estratejia, and go if I won games well, having fun. (Pilot such dede above or alongside the airport, or 2 no bomb? (I'm doing something wrong? Is or is not a game? Deverdad you think that when you're face to face is easier to get? Did you not thought that there is almost always qe drivers do not carry protejen pump and you get to? believe that there are many drivers who do not master fly without the pump, and are more agusto face to face, and to shine in posts.y up in death, everything is. respectable, but what can not be is not tolerant of other drivers as they fall in his game, en.su circulo.aver? mas.muertes are not without pump? then why say cara.ellos face. so is false mas.justo noo. (s mas.justo and is not nothing like elnotro day I used my team to defeat hulk moraf doggs and some more QE with everything we had on hand. (qe We branded Dripper , and other niceties Droper? .... because por.qe les.jode qe les fucks lose its prominence take away the ego puede.luego menfist them publish it on or something my good friend hulk. could hold as more with emitters Droper snaker.ect ect (hechadle a look on their website and lo.vereis) is not right, I knew I was going to publish accurate ... and the next day he had gained the captura.pero you know what else. I like apart from good jaja.pues le.dimos defeat the lads when we beat hulk and laughed los.otros Super happy were happy me.dieron las.gracias bonito.aqui there was something really rules? that I have to play along to a few? nooo what fun is hacer.cosas different feel when you achieve the goal will continue to enjoy a joy inmensa.sigamos whining, fuck them, will continue criticizing .. fuck them (I ask one thing ye enter not on his game, he is lo.que them I want and do not will have) the freire and will have to find another screen and often make jajajaja.quiero finish by saying that is a super genius, is best know what the game needs, so that the lo.creo disfrutásemos him, not to make a determined way de.una monopoly jugar.quiero all voleis free and enjoy it in this unique game that every mission is something nice, not an argument, it is a workout to get more experience and profit each mission do differently to avoid the dogfight convert into something monotonous and boring (not mas.feliz the more points you get ... but to get them enjoying every moment .. de.cada de.cada mountain mission del.sol , clouds, rain, las.sensaciones los.valles the lakes, those wonderful sensaciones.un hug to all friends.
Thank you (I think)

ALL IN 100%

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Last edit: by [*M]VonHuLK.

The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199456

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Thank you! friend to translate a hug.
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199584

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Darn these language barriers! Wish I took Spanish in high school, might actually help me out now...

Bellsaj, basically my point was that I believe Dogfight has much more potential than just being a mindless shooter. It starts with changing the player's mentality (how they view the game), then changing the actual game itself (we'll have to wait for Zuperman's hard work to keep shining through in the updates)!
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199608

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I really don't know why, when I say you guys this, a very big rain of attacks and warnings vs me !! But now I see some pilots that change their opinion about use tactics in this game :silly: . Nice
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #199986

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Well, since this topic deserves to keep popping up at the top of the 'recent topics' list...........DONE!
Great topic Luna!

This post shows the way this game 'should' develop.......if not......another game will. ( and since I love this game I hope for the first option.)
Great game Zuperman!
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200143

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Yes, I'm sure Zuperman has some big things in store for Dogfight in the future. The game has already come a long way since I started playing over two years ago. The best we can all do is continue to support the developers and be patient, one update at a time.
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200166

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Darn these language barriers! Wish I took Spanish in high school, might actually help me out now...

Bellsaj, basically my point was that I believe Dogfight has much more potential than just being a mindless shooter. It starts with changing the player's mentality (how they view the game), then changing the actual game itself (we'll have to wait for Zuperman's hard work to keep shining through in the updates)!


If only I would have had the opportunity to learn Spanish in school I would have.
Beside English (that is obligated) we could choose between french and german.
Neither of them looked appealing to me so I chose not to learn a third language.

I do understand most of what you write in English, but your advanced English is a bigger challenge. Even if there is some words I don't know I can grasp the overall picture, but I'm grateful that you took time to simplify it for me.
Thank you Luna.
Don´t live life faster then your guardian angel can fly
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200191

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Luna, there's another aspect of the game that has changed fairly recently...

Bomb-Holders
Strengths: Can bomb and shoot, multiple capability.
Weaknesses: Slow and less agile.

Bomb-Droppers
Strengths: Fast, agile fighter.
Weaknesses: Cannot bomb targets.

Since Zup changed something that prevents taking out multiple hangars with one bomb, any team carrying bombs is at a severe disadvantage if any of the enemy are droppers. Having a bomb cannot be compensated for because of the significant loss of speed and agility, making any bomber an easy target for a dropper. In the past the risk was worth it -- and I think he has made the difference in speed/agility even greater than before -- because that bomb could inflict heavy damage. Now, however, it only makes sense to carry if your team has a numeric superiority over the other (or if you have a couple droppers on your team). Even still, bomb carriers are still easy targets, and frankly it will tend to encourage the Destroy Enemy Base matches to be nothing more than long Dogfight matches, since it's to everyone's advantage to drop if you want to get any points.
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Last edit: by [b]pluribus.

The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200200

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this is the first time ive actually read this thread. Luna, If i had the power, id give u a post of the month award!! Way to go.
Retired in the skies of Dogfight.
Raising Hell in the skies of Warthunder

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200208

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The dual bomb has some interesting new implications. Flying with 2 bombs makes the airplane horribly beastly, slow, and slow-turning. Dropping one bomb gives you an in-between state, but I believe the turnability is just like single-bomb-laden planes before. Visually, I don't think there is a way to detect if an enemy is carrying two or one bombs. Anyway, it has added some new dimensions. I haven't seen a team rally to protect a dual-bomber, but it would be interesting to fly that mission and have four hangars taken out in one run. Potentially.
Manfred
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200212

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The dual bomb has some interesting new implications. Flying with 2 bombs makes the airplane horribly beastly, slow, and slow-turning. Dropping one bomb gives you an in-between state, but I believe the turnability is just like single-bomb-laden planes before. Visually, I don't think there is a way to detect if an enemy is carrying two or one bombs. Anyway, it has added some new dimensions. I haven't seen a team rally to protect a dual-bomber, but it would be interesting to fly that mission and have four hangars taken out in one run. Potentially.
Manfred


But you can't get two hangars with a bomb any more. The last 20-30 times I've tried, I've laid a bomb squarely between two hangars and have not gotten even one. I've tried from different altitudes, dive bombing vs. laying one in, splitting at the end vs. the middle, etc. I think Zup has changed the game to prevent doubles. And it's just not worth the tradeoff in weight to take out two hangars with two bombs. You can almost never get through (unless, as I said, you have numerical superiority, in which case the game is probably going to go your way anyhow). By the way, I've tried dropping one bomb and tried to split hangars as well, but same result: you still get none.

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200213

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I guess I haven't tried the double hangar since that change. Bummer.

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200219

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I guess I haven't tried the double hangar since that change. Bummer.


Oddly, I've seen others do it from time to time in the past couple of weeks. But I wonder if they're on Windows or iOS devices; it won't be the first time Zup made a change that crippled Android players.

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200221

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On ipad and just knot out two hangars wit one bomb.


Think you're going Crazy? Great! When you get there look me up and I'll show you around.

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200232

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I'm not sure but I think it's only at the north base that you can't take out two hangars with one bomb.
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200234

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Luna I love what you said. But to play the devils advocate. Most of the complaints about droppers is when the game is totally lopsided. When it six on two or four one one. Does the side with number actually need a dropper or someone that sneaks high or way to the side. I understand tactics but there is a need to take advantage of an already disadvantaged team. When the teams are even go for what you want play the way you feel. That's all good. But when it's six on two shouldn't overwhelming numbers still will. Its a law of statistics overwhelming fire power should always win if used properly. That's where most of the conflict comes from. Is it to much to ask for some courtesy when outnumbered for others not to drop or go sneaking. Go high if you want but please stay in the radar range. Is that so much to ask. Let the team with two at least have a fighting chance. Like said its not so much of honor but a common respect. If this respect was given to all then it should be received by all.if we could all do that this game. Would be one of the greatest games ever.

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200236

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I'm not sure but I think it's only at the north base that you can't take out two hangars with one bomb.


The south base hangers were immune to a split bomb just this morning. And they've been like that for the past month or so.

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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200239

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Luna I love what you said. But to play the devils advocate. Most of the complaints about droppers is when the game is totally lopsided. When it six on two or four one one. Does the side with number actually need a dropper or someone that sneaks high or way to the side. I understand tactics but there is a need to take advantage of an already disadvantaged team. When the teams are even go for what you want play the way you feel. That's all good. But when it's six on two shouldn't overwhelming numbers still will. Its a law of statistics overwhelming fire power should always win if used properly. That's where most of the conflict comes from. Is it to much to ask for some courtesy when outnumbered for others not to drop or go sneaking. Go high if you want but please stay in the radar range. Is that so much to ask. Let the team with two at least have a fighting chance. Like said its not so much of honor but a common respect. If this respect was given to all then it should be received by all.if we could all do that this game. Would be one of the greatest games ever.


I'll play the real devil's advocate here and say that in a 6v2 game, it's really to the advantage of the 2 that it end quickly, since the next game is more likely to be even (or more even, anyway). It does no good to prolong something where the outcome of the game is almost certainly predetermined. Unless, of course, the 2 enjoy being underdogs/slaughtered.
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The Dogfight Meta 7 years 4 months ago #200240

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I have to disagree with you darraxx. The lesser numbered team still has a chance if they just take into account that they DO have the lesser numbers and therefore concentrate on playing defense while flying bombless in the vicinity of their base to cover all possible approaches versus doing the typical 'up the middle thru the valley of death run'.

In war very seldom were 2 armies evenly matched.. same as in this game. Either you have even teams numbers-wise, but one team has a bunch of experienced players while the other is mostly level 8-10's or else the teams are imbalanced numbers-wise and so it behooves the team with the lesser numbers to concentrate on playing defense until something changes.. like some reds leaving & blues spawning in.

Expecting the opposing team to play to your strengths and narrow their attacking vectors to accommodate you is simply foolish. Why shouldn't they take advantage of all possible means of attacking you and winning the mission? Why shouldn't they sneak high or around? Or accompany their bombers with fighters? Likewise, why shouldn't you as the defending team drop and concentrate on shooting down all the incoming lumbering bombers. After all the purpose of every mission is to win.. by whatever means necessary!
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