Ooh ive a big brain melter here......we sin? Yes. And we are far from perfect but then god made us in his own image right? So does that mean god sins? Its certainly possible but how would we ever know...its an odd question but an interesting thought. We have lots of text written about ourselves and about jesus etc but we know only a small ammount of the greater scheme, therefore does anyone know more about the devine one? Does he walk among us but we do not know? He could in theory be anybody and have all the powers etc thus seeing all....or is god just existence itself and an unfathomable existance of vastness that stretches beyond the galaxies into a huge vastness? Im asking in a serious way not joking as its always baffled me and then my mind goes deeper and deeper until im just baffled by my own minds intricate workings and deepest thoughts.

"This is weirdest non religious thread I've ever seen"

Hey, in the beginning I tried to avoid it. Even now, I've said my piece and it's in everyone else's hands. But, please maintain the tone that you guys have maintained. Thank you for being respectful about it and for talking about your own beliefs, as opposed to why you don't agree with someone else.

Alrighty then... It looks like the latest gossip is that Hillary was fired for her conduct a a young attorney during Watergate. I never knew that she was even involved, but I'm not suprised. I grew up in Arkansas during the Clinton reign and that is much of what shaped my very conservative views. Bill's saving grace to me was his ability, for the most part, to hire good people to handle things for him. Plus, he had to work with Newt Gingrich through much of his presidency so many of the policies during it could be considered very centrist. The current ding dongs running the Republican show don't have the spine to force Obama to the center. Who Inows where we are headed next though?

onsekone....you hit the nail on the response to my post LOVE your addition

onsekone.......you worded this perfectly......loved your response and reply

Jacklpe wrote: "This is weirdest non religious thread I've ever seen"

Hey, in the beginning I tried to avoid it. Even now, I've said my piece and it's in everyone else's hands. But, please maintain the tone that you guys have maintained. Thank you for being respectful about it and for talking about your own beliefs, as opposed to why you don't agree with someone else.

Alrighty then... It looks like the latest gossip is that Hillary was fired for her conduct a a young attorney during Watergate. I never knew that she was even involved, but I'm not suprised. I grew up in Arkansas during the Clinton reign and that is much of what shaped my very conservative views. Bill's saving grace to me was his ability, for the most part, to hire good people to handle things for him. Plus, he had to work with Newt Gingrich through much of his presidency so many of the policies during it could be considered very centrist. The current ding dongs running the Republican show don't have the spine to force Obama to the center. Who Inows where we are headed next though?

Established republicans dont want what republican voters want. The politicians fight for themselves, on both sides.

I think NDAA is a big deal, but i feel many dont understand the repercussions of it.



This is a law that uses NDAA for justification. It outlines the plans for camps to be used for US citizens, specifically political activists.



This talks about how the "prisoners Social Security Number" will be collected, proving its use for US citizens.



Some plans for when it will be used.



The agencies involved, including FEMA, DOD, and DHS



"Psychological Operations Officer" who identifies political activists and leaders and indoctrinates them.



Use of deadly force in an escape attempt, proving this is a mandatory stay.



The camps for regular prisoners, designed to hold 4,000. Barbed wire fences with 24 guard towers.



Camps for more active prisoners, includes one interrogation room per 100 prisoners.

This is not all of it, the whole law is 100 and some pages.

I keep hearing rumblings about those things, but I've done very little personal research, and I have no idea who to believe on the matter. It's not a good thought though is it?

MaDtotheMoM wrote: Ooh ive a big brain melter here......we sin? Yes. And we are far from perfect but then god made us in his own image right? So does that mean god sins? Its certainly possible but how would we ever know...its an odd question but an interesting thought. We have lots of text written about ourselves and about jesus etc but we know only a small ammount of the greater scheme, therefore does anyone know more about the devine one? Does he walk among us but we do not know? He could in theory be anybody and have all the powers etc thus seeing all....or is god just existence itself and an unfathomable existance of vastness that stretches beyond the galaxies into a huge vastness? Im asking in a serious way not joking as its always baffled me and then my mind goes deeper and deeper until im just baffled by my own minds intricate workings and deepest thoughts.

Well mad i can give u Sikhiism perspective on that age old question. Nanak, reasons that all things good n bad are the result
Of gods will and god is a force of creation. However that doesnt let us off the hook for committing sin. God exists in all of us and therefore we all have
Ability to excercise free will for which only we are responsible (karma)

By sinning we put ourselves in hell and by doing good things we experience heaven here on earth.
The punishment for sinning is our continued existence as a soul cycling thru life n death. The reward is nirvana/assimilation
Back into god. The human life is valuable because in this life we have free will whereas other species
Act on instinct.

. He further states that the nature of god is unknowable
And beyond our abilities to comprehend. By saying that god looks like this or dresses like this we are
Overstating our own abilities. His description of god is an entity that hates noone, fears noone, infinite in dimensions. This view
Was further elaborated by the later teachers that came after nanak

As far as god being qll of existence itself

God is not identical with the universe. The latter exists and is contained in Him and not vice versa. God is immanent in the created world, but is not limited by it. “Many times He expands Himself into such worlds but He ever remains the same One Ekankar" (SGGS, 276). Even at one time "there are hundreds of thousands of skies and nether regions" (SGGS, 5). Included in Sach Khand (Realm of Truth), the figurative abode of God, there are countless regions and universes" (SGGS, . Creation is "His play which He witnesses, and when He rolls up the play, He is His sole Self again" (SGGS, 292). He is the Creator, Sustainer and the Destroyer


As far as organized religion he claimed that your positive deeds and love of god are more important then
Rituals associated with religious practice. Therefore sikhiism is not supposed to be a religion with rituals the way
It has sadly become overtime.

[DD]Big C wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: "This is weirdest non religious thread I've ever seen"

Hey, in the beginning I tried to avoid it. Even now, I've said my piece and it's in everyone else's hands. But, please maintain the tone that you guys have maintained. Thank you for being respectful about it and for talking about your own beliefs, as opposed to why you don't agree with someone else.

Alrighty then... It looks like the latest gossip is that Hillary was fired for her conduct a a young attorney during Watergate. I never knew that she was even involved, but I'm not suprised. I grew up in Arkansas during the Clinton reign and that is much of what shaped my very conservative views. Bill's saving grace to me was his ability, for the most part, to hire good people to handle things for him. Plus, he had to work with Newt Gingrich through much of his presidency so many of the policies during it could be considered very centrist. The current ding dongs running the Republican show don't have the spine to force Obama to the center. Who Inows where we are headed next though?

Established republicans dont want what republican voters want. The politicians fight for themselves, on both sides.

I think NDAA is a big deal, but i feel many dont understand the repercussions of it.

This is a law that uses NDAA for justification. It outlines the plans for camps to be used for US citizens, specifically political activists.

This talks about how the "prisoners Social Security Number" will be collected, proving its use for US citizens.

Some plans for when it will be used.

The agencies involved, including FEMA, DOD, and DHS

"Psychological Operations Officer" who identifies political activists and leaders and indoctrinates them.

Use of deadly force in an escape attempt, proving this is a mandatory stay.

The camps for regular prisoners, designed to hold 4,000. Barbed wire fences with 24 guard towers.

Camps for more active prisoners, includes one interrogation room per 100 prisoners.

This is not all of it, the whole law is 100 and some pages.

So now i say this. Do my calls to arms sound so outrageous now? Thanks for digging up the truth c, if you feel the way i do about this, I'll gladly sacrifice everything in battle to return this country to what it was supposed to be. And before the feds storm my door and the inevitable hate mail starts let me remind all the vets, law enforcement officers, and those that are loyal to the feds, just bc it's the law doesn't make it right. It was law for the nazis to hunt the Jews and exterminate them. History has shown us what happened there. THIS IS EXACTLY HOW THE NAZIS WERE ABLE TO COMMIT THEIR ATROCITIES!!! How long will Americans turn a blind eye to things like this before they do what the founding fathers empowered us to do? Are you going to wait until your friends and neighbors begin disappearing before you start fighting back? They won't back down until the cost is so high that they can't stomach it anymore. The time for peace is over. More drastic action is necessary to right the wrongs being done to us. This behavior can't be allowed to continue. I'm a rebel, i fight for the people. I only hope I'm not fighting for our future alone or it's gonna be one short lopsided battle.

Before I forget again. Skydavis, if you want to read more about giants, google the book of Enoch.

Interesting questions Anthony. These are the things that have been keeping me awake sometimes. Are you sure you are not my long ago lost twin brother? However, I’m afraid there’s no answers, but I can share some of my thoughts.

MaDtotheMoM wrote: Ooh ive a big brain melter here......we sin? Yes. And we are far from perfect but then god made us in his own image right? So does that mean god sins? Its certainly possible but how would we ever know...its an odd question but an interesting thought.

God made us in his own image, but then first people created by God took a fruit from a three that gave the ability to know the difference between good and evil. Since it was prohibited (it was only thing that was prohibited) Adam and Eve found themselves under the curse. Image of God in people was corrupted and people naturally started to choose evil.

Now to the brain melter. Originally the sin (rebellion against God) was brought to Paradise by a snake, which we know as Devil aka Lucifer. Lucifer was angel who got arrogant and rebelled against God with 1/3 of angels. They lost the battle and some of them got busted to the depth of the pit and the rest were thrown on earth. Since everything else except God is created, why all knowing God left so dangerous bug on angels? And if there is nothing that is not created, is evil itself created by God? Devil is created, so evilness in Devil must be created as well.

To help us out of thinking God as creator of evil, we should focus on good – evil scale. How about if that scale is like the one which shows us temperature? The closer we go to absolute zero, the colder it gets because there is no energy that we could feel as heat. If we have more energy and heat, we’ll see the numbers on our scale move up and we start feeling warm. What if evil itself is just lack of good? God is good, so he gets the upper, unlimited end of the scale and Devil, being absolute evil, gets the low end? That would mean God did not create evil but left the possibility for angels and people to not to accept his goodness. Why did he do that? I don’t know. I just play the game by his rules.

MaDtotheMoM wrote: We have lots of text written about ourselves and about jesus etc but we know only a small ammount of the greater scheme, therefore does anyone know more about the devine one? Does he walk among us but we do not know? He could in theory be anybody and have all the powers etc thus seeing all....or is god just existence itself and an unfathomable existance of vastness that stretches beyond the galaxies into a huge vastness?

Have you seen the movie Men in Black? In the movie agents were looking for missing galaxy to save the earth. When they found it, the galaxy was actually in the pendant of small dogs collar. “How many times do I have to tell you, size doesn’t matter!” God chose to live in eternity; witch on my understanding is a condition in which there is no time. When we die, we leave time behind and go to Gods dimension. And as we can also see from Bible, time is not an issue to God.

”One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” And we can also see from creation. Sun and moon which measure the passage of time were not created until fourth day.

So what it means to live in dimension that has no time? There will be only this moment, which is not a moment because there is no time. Moments that we think as past or future are like equivalent present moments to God. Before Einstein made his theory of general relativity, this could not be understood but now we might be able to get a picture. If there is no time, distances are also meaningless. Maybe this is one of the reasons why God didn’t want people to make statue or picture of God. It wouldn’t look like God. How can you make a picture if you cannot use any perspective?

So God can be present on the other side of universe and “He is not far from each one of us”. All at the same time. A couple of places in Isaiah show just how absolute control God has to universe. He is the one, that started it and one day he will finish our universe. I won’t mind since it was cooling down anyway. And Bible says he is going to make new one. Imagine the possibilities to study our new universe, when we don’t have to care about time and distance. I sure will enjoy watching stars explode to stardust and form new stars.

Isaiah 40:22 “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”.

Isaiah 34:4 “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.”

But this is not the full story. God has also left us a couple of “user interface”. One is mentioned on the beginning of John, which is my favorite. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. Same word, that has been before creation of universe and was the actual Creator of universe, is printed on our Bible.

The other “user interface” is holy Spirit, “And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father[and Son], who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.” (First Council of Constantinople year 381)

Acts 2:1-4 ”And in the day of the Pentecost being fulfilled, they were all with one accord at the same place, and there came suddenly out of the heaven a sound as of a bearing violent breath, and it filled all the house where they were sitting, and there appeared to them divided tongues, as it were of fire; it sat also upon each one of them, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare.”

These were just my thoughts of the subject.

Kptn singh and onesekone......very interesting views indeed....its opened my mind that's for sure. Heres another idea ive had many times......the human brain and the mind....we use only a small amount of it? And yet we do not know what the rest is used for....do you think it is a part of evolution or maybe a lost skill that we have the ability to maybe see or to communicate with the devines/angels/god himself?

One nicely put!!!

There's a single book in the bible that has always made me wonder more then other books what it was saying. I would appreciate anyone's opinion on how they understand it.

That book is Ezekiel, not the whole book but the first part, explaining in detail God, and his arrival on seeing the prophet Ezekiel. The disruption is odd to say the least. The hands, heads the figures, and the mode of there arrival. A wheel with in a wheel, color of burl (ruby).

I would be interested in what others have in visioned, for ol' Zeke's description.

Thank you.

MaDtotheMoM wrote: Kptn singh and onesekone......very interesting views indeed....its opened my mind that's for sure. Heres another idea ive had many times......the human brain and the mind....we use only a small amount of it? And yet we do not know what the rest is used for....do you think it is a part of evolution or maybe a lost skill that we have the ability to maybe see or to communicate with the devines/angels/god himself?

I'm into theory of lost skill in the fall of man. Communicate? Maybe, but God and angels can communicate with us just fine. If they need to.

I've seen some documents about people getting amazing talents after suffering brain injury. So obviously we have recourses to much more than we use. Now we are sending probes to outer space and building telescopes to look for intelligent life. This makes me think, are we looking into right direction? Maybe we should keep looking intelligent life from our own heads. At least distances and probes would be smaller.

What do you think?

I've had the same thoughts Mad. You don't know what you are missing if you never knew it was there. We love to sit around and marvel at what we have accomplished, and pat ourselves on the back. But, consider the fact that 1000 years ago we were probably marveling at what we had accomplished and that we just knew we almost had it all figured out. I seriously wonder about what we currently have no idea about, and what those mysterious "unused" places in our brains are all about.

When I hear someone say "I believe in science" as a blanket statement, that makes me believe that the person thinks that we've got it all figured out. I would venture a guess that we have almost nothing figured out yet. I also believe in science as a way to study our world, but I believe that until whatever apocalypse awaits us happens, we will keep discovering amazing things, and rewriting the rule book due to those discoveries.

Sky I believe touched on the Bible being written in such a way that it could be understood by all who read it in the different ages that it will be read. I've wondered the same thing, and I think he is on to something there.

[WS]HD wrote:

[DD]Big C wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: "This is weirdest non religious thread I've ever seen"

Hey, in the beginning I tried to avoid it. Even now, I've said my piece and it's in everyone else's hands. But, please maintain the tone that you guys have maintained. Thank you for being respectful about it and for talking about your own beliefs, as opposed to why you don't agree with someone else.

Alrighty then... It looks like the latest gossip is that Hillary was fired for her conduct a a young attorney during Watergate. I never knew that she was even involved, but I'm not suprised. I grew up in Arkansas during the Clinton reign and that is much of what shaped my very conservative views. Bill's saving grace to me was his ability, for the most part, to hire good people to handle things for him. Plus, he had to work with Newt Gingrich through much of his presidency so many of the policies during it could be considered very centrist. The current ding dongs running the Republican show don't have the spine to force Obama to the center. Who Inows where we are headed next though?

Established republicans dont want what republican voters want. The politicians fight for themselves, on both sides.

I think NDAA is a big deal, but i feel many dont understand the repercussions of it.

This is a law that uses NDAA for justification. It outlines the plans for camps to be used for US citizens, specifically political activists.

This talks about how the "prisoners Social Security Number" will be collected, proving its use for US citizens.

Some plans for when it will be used.

The agencies involved, including FEMA, DOD, and DHS

"Psychological Operations Officer" who identifies political activists and leaders and indoctrinates them.

Use of deadly force in an escape attempt, proving this is a mandatory stay.

The camps for regular prisoners, designed to hold 4,000. Barbed wire fences with 24 guard towers.

Camps for more active prisoners, includes one interrogation room per 100 prisoners.

This is not all of it, the whole law is 100 and some pages.

So now i say this. Do my calls to arms sound so outrageous now? Thanks for digging up the truth c, if you feel the way i do about this, I'll gladly sacrifice everything in battle to return this country to what it was supposed to be. And before the feds storm my door and the inevitable hate mail starts let me remind all the vets, law enforcement officers, and those that are loyal to the feds, just bc it's the law doesn't make it right. It was law for the nazis to hunt the Jews and exterminate them. History has shown us what happened there. THIS IS EXACTLY HOW THE NAZIS WERE ABLE TO COMMIT THEIR ATROCITIES!!! How long will Americans turn a blind eye to things like this before they do what the founding fathers empowered us to do? Are you going to wait until your friends and neighbors begin disappearing before you start fighting back? They won't back down until the cost is so high that they can't stomach it anymore. The time for peace is over. More drastic action is necessary to right the wrongs being done to us. This behavior can't be allowed to continue. I'm a rebel, i fight for the people. I only hope I'm not fighting for our future alone or it's gonna be one short lopsided battle.

WTH?!? This is already a law or about to become one? It was my understanding that the founding fathers of our great nation made SURE that US military troops can't be used against our own citizens on our own soil!! If this is what our country is turning into.. I am truly saddened. Bad enough the reports of police going into lawful citizens homes & confiscating their legally purchased & registered weapons both in Cali & New York.. but internment camps for people who are protesting against the government?!? THAT is at the core of what this great nation was founded on! *sigh*

ZebraUp wrote:

[WS]HD wrote:

[DD]Big C wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: "This is weirdest non religious thread I've ever seen"

Hey, in the beginning I tried to avoid it. Even now, I've said my piece and it's in everyone else's hands. But, please maintain the tone that you guys have maintained. Thank you for being respectful about it and for talking about your own beliefs, as opposed to why you don't agree with someone else.

Alrighty then... It looks like the latest gossip is that Hillary was fired for her conduct a a young attorney during Watergate. I never knew that she was even involved, but I'm not suprised. I grew up in Arkansas during the Clinton reign and that is much of what shaped my very conservative views. Bill's saving grace to me was his ability, for the most part, to hire good people to handle things for him. Plus, he had to work with Newt Gingrich through much of his presidency so many of the policies during it could be considered very centrist. The current ding dongs running the Republican show don't have the spine to force Obama to the center. Who Inows where we are headed next though?

Established republicans dont want what republican voters want. The politicians fight for themselves, on both sides.

I think NDAA is a big deal, but i feel many dont understand the repercussions of it.

This is a law that uses NDAA for justification. It outlines the plans for camps to be used for US citizens, specifically political activists.

This talks about how the "prisoners Social Security Number" will be collected, proving its use for US citizens.

Some plans for when it will be used.

The agencies involved, including FEMA, DOD, and DHS

"Psychological Operations Officer" who identifies political activists and leaders and indoctrinates them.

Use of deadly force in an escape attempt, proving this is a mandatory stay.

The camps for regular prisoners, designed to hold 4,000. Barbed wire fences with 24 guard towers.

Camps for more active prisoners, includes one interrogation room per 100 prisoners.

This is not all of it, the whole law is 100 and some pages.

So now i say this. Do my calls to arms sound so outrageous now? Thanks for digging up the truth c, if you feel the way i do about this, I'll gladly sacrifice everything in battle to return this country to what it was supposed to be. And before the feds storm my door and the inevitable hate mail starts let me remind all the vets, law enforcement officers, and those that are loyal to the feds, just bc it's the law doesn't make it right. It was law for the nazis to hunt the Jews and exterminate them. History has shown us what happened there. THIS IS EXACTLY HOW THE NAZIS WERE ABLE TO COMMIT THEIR ATROCITIES!!! How long will Americans turn a blind eye to things like this before they do what the founding fathers empowered us to do? Are you going to wait until your friends and neighbors begin disappearing before you start fighting back? They won't back down until the cost is so high that they can't stomach it anymore. The time for peace is over. More drastic action is necessary to right the wrongs being done to us. This behavior can't be allowed to continue. I'm a rebel, i fight for the people. I only hope I'm not fighting for our future alone or it's gonna be one short lopsided battle.

WTH?!? This is already a law or about to become one? It was my understanding that the founding fathers of our great nation made SURE that US military troops can't be used against our own citizens on our own soil!! If this is what our country is turning into.. I am truly saddened. Bad enough the reports of police going into lawful citizens homes & confiscating their legally purchased & registered weapons both in Cali & New York.. but internment camps for people who are protesting against the government?!? THAT is at the core of what this great nation was founded on! *sigh*

You all realize that this law does nothing new to enable the government to detain American citizens? It primarily allows the closing of Guatanamo and authorizing the government to store those detainees in other nations. You will never discover this if you stick to The Blaze and other partisan blogs whose primary purpose is to cause fear, entertain, and support a partisan agenda versus actually informing its readers. I researched this through the ACLU. The ACLU is actually a non-partisan entity that pushes for strict adherence to the Constitution. In my younger days, I was forced to work a protection detail for the local KKK who decided to parade through a minority neighborhood to the MLK center on MLK Day. What organization made this disaster possible? THe ACLU defending the KKK's right to free speech and assemblage. Here is the link:

www.aclu.org/blog/tag/ndaa

Thank you TX. I could find no other reference to the National Defense Authorization Act, but am pasting the full texts of one of the ACLU's observations about this almost annual authorization:
__________________________________________________

By Chris Anders, Senior Legislative Counsel, ACLU Washington Legislative Office at 10:14pm


The Senate is once again debating the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), and is within a day or two of voting yet again on the issue of indefinite detention without charge or trial in the United States itself.

Last year, Congress passed the NDAA and made permanent very broad authority for the military to throw civilians into prison without charge or trial. While military detention without charge or trial is illegal in the United States, some key senators urged that even American citizens and others picked up in the United States could be detained under NDAA.

They did not succeed. The NDAA that was signed into law on New Year's Eve last year was bad enough, but it did not authorize military detention within the United States. Some in Congress now want to have a second crack at it-some to make it better and some to make it worse.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein has introduced an amendment that superficially looks like it could help, but in fact, would cause harm. Feinstein was a forceful leader last year against the NDAA detention provisions and believes that she is doing the right thing this year. But the problem is that the actual text of her amendment is bad.

It might look like a fix, but it breaks things further. Feinstein's amendment says that American citizens and green-card holders in the United States cannot be put into indefinite detention in a military prison, but carves out everyone else in the United States.

There are three problems with her amendment:
•It would NOT make America off-limits to the military being used to imprison civilians without charge or trial. That's because its focus on protections for citizens and green-card holders implies that non-citizens could be militarily detained. The goal should be to prohibit domestic use of the military entirely. That's the protection provided to everyone in the United States by the Posse Comitatus Act. That principle would be broken if the military can find an opening to operate against civilians here at home, maybe under the guise of going after non-citizens. This is truly an instance where, when some lose their rights, all lose rights -- even those who look like they are being protected.
•It is inconsistent with the Constitution, which makes clear that basic due process rights apply to everyone in the United States. No group of immigrants should be denied the most basic due process right of all -- the right to be charged and tried before being imprisoned.
•It would set some dangerous precedents for Congress: that the military may have a role in America itself, that indefinite detention without charge or trial can be contemplated in the United States, and that some immigrants can be easily carved out of the most basic due process protections.

The executive director of the Japanese American Citizens League just wrote to Congress:


The [Feinstein] amendment is of particular concern to the Japanese American Citizens League because of our historic concern stemming from the Japanese American incarceration experience during World War II. Nearly half of the internees were not United States citizens, and would not have been protected by this amendment. In consideration of due process and the rule of law within the United States, we urge you to oppose the Feinstein amendment, unless revised to protect all persons in the United States from indefinite detention without charge or trial.

There are good ways and bad ways to amend the NDAA. Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colorado) has introduced two amendments that would change the NDAA in good ways. But Sen. Feinstein, despite good intentions, has introduced a harmful amendment.

There is still time to stop it. Call your senators now and say "Vote NO" on the Feinstein amendment, unless it is fixed to make the entire United States off-limits to indefinite detention without charge or trial by the military. The congressional switchboard number is 202-225-3121. This amendment goes to the very heart of who we are.

And here is a letter from a coalition of organizations urging a NO vote:
www.aclu.org/national-security/due-proce...-amendment-3018-ndaa.

____________________________________

Will try to locate other legitimate source material for this discussion. I'm no advocate for Civil Liberty intrusions, but I don't like being led by the nose by political scare-mongers.

OK. The NDAA is a HUUUUGE piece of annual legislation that does everything from fund the military to determine proper process of rape cases by military personnel. It is wide open to everything and anything and anyone.

If you have concerns I'd suggest you start reading the policy blogs about the specific provisions that bother you. I also hope you will cast a cautious eye on those who would try to herd us like sheep for their own political gain. [Yes, read Louis Gomert as a prime example.]

Briefly, yes the military detention within the US authorization was included in the original 2012 proposal. It was rejected by the Senate, and legal challenges are warmed up and ready to go if and when that provision ever does pass.

Don't know what that adds to this discussion, but if this is the issue that warms your heart, I wish you well...

As I said earlier, I don't know a lot about it, or who to trust. I don't trust the ACLU, and I don't trust the Blaze either. I pretty much figure that the government can already do damn near whatever it wants with you, and if you don't have the money to fight it, and your problem doesn't fit in with a group like the ACLU's agenda, you are screwed.

Jacklpe wrote: As I said earlier, I don't know a lot about it, or who to trust. I don't trust the ACLU, and I don't trust the Blaze either. I pretty much figure that the government can already do damn near whatever it wants with you, and if you don't have the money to fight it, and your problem doesn't fit in with a group like the ACLU's agenda, you are screwed.

My problem with the ndaa is that no matter how you slice it, what kind of fancy dress and perfume you put on it, it is still a piece of legislation trying to strip a majorly critical right that americans in this country have enjoyed since the founding fathers risked death in favor of freedom. Do any of you really believe that once the government has the power to imprison american citizens without charging them, that they wont use it to eliminate political dissidents from the population? Im no college grad. Nor am i a great charismatic public
speaker. But what i am is smart enough to recognize a dangerous precedent when i see one and this.... It reeks of future atrocities to me. If allowed to grow the way the politicians want it to grow, confiscation of firearms will be next. The idea being remove the weapons and the people cant fight back. They've already tried several times and failed thankfully to grab firearms and take them away from the people. Its only a matter of time mark my words people. Uncle sam is banging on his war drum and hes doing it against his own people. Shouldn't we be banging our war drums back?

[WS]HD wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: As I said earlier, I don't know a lot about it, or who to trust. I don't trust the ACLU, and I don't trust the Blaze either. I pretty much figure that the government can already do damn near whatever it wants with you, and if you don't have the money to fight it, and your problem doesn't fit in with a group like the ACLU's agenda, you are screwed.

My problem with the ndaa is that no matter how you slice it, what kind of fancy dress and perfume you put on it, it is still a piece of legislation trying to strip a majorly critical right that americans in this country have enjoyed since the founding fathers risked death in favor of freedom. Do any of you really believe that once the government has the power to imprison american citizens without charging them, that they wont use it to eliminate political dissidents from the population? Im no college grad. Nor am i a great charismatic public
speaker. But what i am is smart enough to recognize a dangerous precedent when i see one and this.... It reeks of future atrocities to me. If allowed to grow the way the politicians want it to grow, confiscation of firearms will be next. The idea being remove the weapons and the people cant fight back. They've already tried several times and failed thankfully to grab firearms and take them away from the people. Its only a matter of time mark my words people. Uncle sam is banging on his war drum and hes doing it against his own people. Shouldn't we be banging our war drums back?

HD that is already happening in 2 states.. California & New York.. in Cali if you have something as minor as unpaid toll charges & the government notices you have certain types of firearms registered they HAVE sent the police to a persons (law abiding citizen)house and lured them outside and then went in and confiscated their weapons.. in New York letters have been sent to law abiding citizens stating they have __ amount of hours to turn into the nearest police station certain weapons that are now considered against the state laws.. even though those laws weren't in effect when the LEGAL weapon was purchased & registered according to state law..
Any precedent that allows military use within the USA against it's citizens is seriously messed up! The only time the military should be used within our borders is in the case of natural disaster or invasion.. other than that, even in the case of civilian unrest, is against the tenants that so many of our founding fathers fought & died for.. as well as all our current and former military.. we swore our allegiance NOT to the government after joining the military.. but to the US Constitution.. a fact that politicians seem to not realize or care about.

ZebraUp wrote:

[WS]HD wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: As I said earlier, I don't know a lot about it, or who to trust. I don't trust the ACLU, and I don't trust the Blaze either. I pretty much figure that the government can already do damn near whatever it wants with you, and if you don't have the money to fight it, and your problem doesn't fit in with a group like the ACLU's agenda, you are screwed.

My problem with the ndaa is that no matter how you slice it, what kind of fancy dress and perfume you put on it, it is still a piece of legislation trying to strip a majorly critical right that americans in this country have enjoyed since the founding fathers risked death in favor of freedom. Do any of you really believe that once the government has the power to imprison american citizens without charging them, that they wont use it to eliminate political dissidents from the population? Im no college grad. Nor am i a great charismatic public
speaker. But what i am is smart enough to recognize a dangerous precedent when i see one and this.... It reeks of future atrocities to me. If allowed to grow the way the politicians want it to grow, confiscation of firearms will be next. The idea being remove the weapons and the people cant fight back. They've already tried several times and failed thankfully to grab firearms and take them away from the people. Its only a matter of time mark my words people. Uncle sam is banging on his war drum and hes doing it against his own people. Shouldn't we be banging our war drums back?

HD that is already happening in 2 states.. California & New York.. in Cali if you have something as minor as unpaid toll charges & the government notices you have certain types of firearms registered they HAVE sent the police to a persons (law abiding citizen)house and lured them outside and then went in and confiscated their weapons.. in New York letters have been sent to law abiding citizens stating they have __ amount of hours to turn into the nearest police station certain weapons that are now considered against the state laws.. even though those laws weren't in effect when the LEGAL weapon was purchased & registered according to state law..
Any precedent that allows military use within the USA against it's citizens is seriously messed up! The only time the military should be used within our borders is in the case of natural disaster or invasion.. other than that, even in the case of civilian unrest, is against the tenants that so many of our founding fathers fought & died for.. as well as all our current and former military.. we swore our allegiance NOT to the government after joining the military.. but to the US Constitution.. a fact that politicians seem to not realize or care about.

Then it has begun. Ladies and gentlemen, i urge you to send your families far from where the coming battles will be fought bc whether you like it or not war is upon us

[WS]HD wrote:

Jacklpe wrote: As I said earlier, I don't know a lot about it, or who to trust. I don't trust the ACLU, and I don't trust the Blaze either. I pretty much figure that the government can already do damn near whatever it wants with you, and if you don't have the money to fight it, and your problem doesn't fit in with a group like the ACLU's agenda, you are screwed.

My problem with the ndaa is that no matter how you slice it, what kind of fancy dress and perfume you put on it, it is still a piece of legislation trying to strip a majorly critical right that americans in this country have enjoyed since the founding fathers risked death in favor of freedom. Do any of you really believe that once the government has the power to imprison american citizens without charging them, that they wont use it to eliminate political dissidents from the population? Im no college grad. Nor am i a great charismatic public
speaker. But what i am is smart enough to recognize a dangerous precedent when i see one and this.... It reeks of future atrocities to me. If allowed to grow the way the politicians want it to grow, confiscation of firearms will be next. The idea being remove the weapons and the people cant fight back. They've already tried several times and failed thankfully to grab firearms and take them away from the people. Its only a matter of time mark my words people. Uncle sam is banging on his war drum and hes doing it against his own people. Shouldn't we be banging our war drums back?

Actually the Patriot Act authorized detention without trial. And no, the government cannot do as it pleases at least from my perspective. I have written plenty of search warrants and had a few denied. I also worked with federal authorities immediately following 9/11. I have worked with them since, and they are as bound by the Constitution as anyone. Don't believe the myths circulating out there. As far as trusting the ACLU, I would challenge anyone to find one instance where the ACLU has done anything to take away Constitutional Protections. It comes down to actions not rhetoric, and the ACLU has a great track record. Hell, they even went to bat for NAMBLA which made me sick.

Yeah but hopefully one good thing will occur the first time the government tries to use the military against it's own citizens.. high-ranking officers will refuse.. unless that "law" becomes a Constitutional Amendment they won't have an easy time convincing intelligent military officers to go against the very document they swore their allegiance to...
at least I hope not.

The flaw in that logic zebra is that during basic soldiers are indoctrinated to follow orders without question, no mater the order because some orders may have an element above that soldiers clearance. I hope our soldiers defect when they realize what's going on. I don't see that happening though as too many are blind.

Tx, you and i are frequently on opposing sides of these arguments and i think it's important for you to remember that what you need to do today to get a warrant you may not need to do tomorrow. Whose side are you going to be on if the people rise up? Where will you stand if uncle Sam decides they want to take your guns away our lock up your wife and kids? What then? Will you still support the feds then?

Breaking #5...so caution...sorry. . Well no, not sorry. will attempt an answer to this. I graduated college with a bachelor of science and throughout college, I've learned and studied the theories of evolution and genetics. I was working on a premed degree. I often found myself trying to intertwine my faith, what the Bible says about creation, and man's ideas, theories of how we got here. Well, my starting point is the Bible. Observational science goes a long way in describing certain processes occurring in a much shorter amount of time than what evolutionists would say. Well, I will say this...the two cannot be intertwined...just not possible. See, up until the 1850s or so, evolution wasn't mainstream...but also at that time, such theories began...and hence, a push to discredit the Bible. I do believe we were made in the image of God. Does that mean He sins since we do? No, Genesis is very clear about the origin of sin. God created this world to be perfect...but He also created us for Him...not as worshipping robots, but as those with a free will. He wants that we would exercise that free will and come to Him. Sin was entered into the world...and well, as a result of that sin, death is the price. Not only death, but other things such as pain with child birth and so on. Anyway, God is a Holy God...and cannot live with sin..Hence reasons why the Jews in the early days performed many sacrifices. We are now born into sin..there is a battle raging for our lives. Luckily for us...God had a plan to redeem us unto him...a way which would allow such a sinful people to live with him through eternity. That plan included the ultimate sacrifice...Himself for us. Came to this earth in the form of man, as a baby in Bethlehem..and born of a virgin as early scriptures would prophesy. Later in life, He would perform many miracles and wonders that just mystified people. He also taught if the kingdom to come...and the information we would need to live in the kingdom. He was sinless. That person, God was Jesus Christ. To know Him is not a religion...to truly know him is to have a relationship with Him. He was murdered by people like us...He gave his life as the ultimate sacrifice which would allow us to be able to live with a Holy God. Now, I don't have all answers, but I do have faith. What I do know and because of what I studied is that theories posed by man do nothing more than to cause more questions and put doubt into minds of others. It is a tactic at which I sadly laugh...sadly because it is powerful in deceiving others. Ok, I got off on a tangent. Happy flying! Oh, and yes, I am a Christian...and im not ashamed.

My apologies if there was a double post...i posted and the thread disappeared on me. Happy flying

[WS]HD wrote: The flaw in that logic zebra is that during basic soldiers are indoctrinated to follow orders without question, no mater the order because some orders may have an element above that soldiers clearance. I hope our soldiers defect when they realize what's going on. I don't see that happening though as too many are blind.

Well HD the military is led by their officers.. who like all members of the military are REQUIRED to disobey an unlawful order.. that being said, any order given that is against the US Constitution is by definition an unlawful order. So I HOPE they would refuse orders of that nature.. there are always those that would refuse to see or be blind.. but hopefully those that weren't would speak up.

Oh and i just thought of one other thing, not political at all but more of a conspiracy theory of mine. Anyone ever take a good long look at the nation's highest military award, the congressional medal of honor? Its an inverted pentagram, as in a satanist's pentagram. Just saying that if i'd designed it i would've made it look like the star roundel on our aircraft and vehicles. Perhaps this is an indication of a secret society at work?

Onsekone...I really liked your answers and insgith as well. on this....

here is a warning but also a Scripture that comes to mind on the "mind" thing:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind."

here is something that one might joke around on.....but my Sunday school teacher said this to me that was very profound.

"Eternity is 12 inches, from your head to your heart."......Being a few years older I figured out that when my teacher said "head" she was referring to the "mind".....

I want to also thank all who have posted questions and answers on this....If anyone is curious....the explainations by Onsekone and Mike Mann closely resemble mine...I want to personaly thank them for the very insightful answers and inspiration they have given to the Dogfight community....