"Again, not paranoia that it will happen; just a belief that certain rights and balances are needed to keep it from EVER going there."--Manfred

If stuff keeps happening, it is not paranoia. I have had my eye on this situation for more than 4 years. I am very nervous it is already too late to stop this country from a totalitarian slide. We already live in a nascent police state, growing continually since 9/11.

The NDAA of 2012 and 2013. Obamacare. TSA. Department of Homeland security. No knock SWAT raids. Federalization/nationalization of police forces around the nation. VIPER teams stopping traffic randomly INSIDE the US. Military helicopters doing exercises and firing blanks over Miami and Houston last week. I could go on.

There will be no substantial pushback from the masses of the American people until they are hit hard economically. Not that we arent already feeling a crunch. We are. I mean much worse than now-- can't afford cable or cell or certain foods because of the government's planned inflation policies.

Now more than ever people should be arming and training and stockpiling...better to need and have than need and not have. And believe me, I hope I am really wrong about this. But I fear I am not going to be wrong.

Hey guys Devil here, I am a proud gun owner and think we need to do a better job on the mentaly ill. I'm also a law enforcement officer in the state of NJ. We do have tough laws here. Guns are not toys and need to be treated seriously. To all the gun owners who have taught your children this thank you. I keep my guns were I can get at them quickly if needed. But locked up safe. I own the following hand guns...ruger lcp .380, .Springfield Xd 45 cal , glock 26 ..9mm and my duty weapon is a Sig p 220 45 cal. Thank you John

Hey NJ Devil/John:
Hope you join...
Oathkeepers.org

PM me if you have any q's.

Hope this works.. It's about a 19th century air rifle..


www.network54.com/Forum/451309/thread/12...not+to+spread+around

Thanks SheiBe, cool video!

Very frightening thread. Thank God the Constituion is a living document meant to be amended, to reflect the times. Otherwise, I'd still be owned as property and counted as 3/5 of a person. Not to mention illiterate.

new jersey devil wrote: Hey guys Devil here, I am a proud gun owner ....I own the following hand guns...ruger lcp .380, .Springfield Xd 45 cal , glock 26 ..9mm and my duty weapon is a Sig p 220 45 cal. Thank you John

Hey Mod, I have a Springfield Xd 45 in green as well. Awesome gun, I can circumcise a fly at 50 yards with it and I like the multiple safety features on it, especially with a 5 year old around. Also have a Taurus titanium 38 special that weights 14 oz. Can't shoot it worth a damn though and it kicks like a mule. I'm so bad with it that I took it back to the gunshop thinking something was wrong with it...the guy took one shot with it and hit the damn bulls eye at 30..so I guess it's just me...

Also have a Winchester 12ga pump for skeet. Don't hunt, never have, just like to shoot for sport and fun.

Big Tex wrote: Very frightening thread. Thank God the Constituion is a living document meant to be amended, to reflect the times. Otherwise, I'd still be owned as property and counted as 3/5 of a person. Not to mention illiterate.

... That ALL men are created equal. It just took the damn fools a long time to figure it out.

We (or at least darn sure me) just want to keep it that way.

Don't mistake one train of thought with another... Just as a lot of conservatives think all liberals are gun grabbing, communist tree hugging Prius driving no common sense destroy the earth trying to save it bed wetting philanthropists with anyone's money but their own tax and spend pie in the sky idiots, there are about as many stereotypes about us. Honestly, neither are true. "All" is never all. And the worst offenders that Ive ever known of the stuff you speak of, in my travels, are in places, and hold political beliefs that you would never dream. Pm me if you'd like a further explanation, cause I don't wanna go near it on here due to the sh@7storm that will surely follow. (Tex only!)

Captain Noushbag wrote:

new jersey devil wrote: Hey guys Devil here, I am a proud gun owner ....I own the following hand guns...ruger lcp .380, .Springfield Xd 45 cal , glock 26 ..9mm and my duty weapon is a Sig p 220 45 cal. Thank you John

Hey Mod, I have a Springfield Xd 45 in green as well. Awesome gun, I can circumcise a fly at 50 yards with it and I like the multiple safety features on it, especially with a 5 year old around. Also have a Taurus titanium 38 special that weights 14 oz. Can't shoot it worth a damn though and it kicks like a mule. I'm so bad with it that I took it back to the gunshop thinking something was wrong with it...the guy took one shot with it and hit the damn bulls eye at 30..so I guess it's just me...

Also have a Winchester 12ga pump for skeet. Don't hunt, never have, just like to shoot for sport and fun.

With that .38, pull the trigger 1/2 way, correct your aim, then squeeze. The heaviest part of the pull should be at the beginning, and the last few bits should be pretty easy. With some practice you will be able to be pretty accurate and still quick. I do it in one motion... Pulling the heavy as I finalize my aim. The tendency with the hammerless is to pull so hard that you end up hitting way to the right (or left if you are a lefty). A smooth pull that you would do with an auto is very difficult with a double action only revolver... And the short barrel make matters even more difficult. As far as the recoil, its the price you pay for the comfortable weight and small profile.

I opted for the Taurus 38 special Ultra light quite a few years back...I remember looking at the titanium but can't remember why I chose the Ultra light.... I pull it out every now and then to plink away at target's in the back yard...

Edit: I better give a visual. I have a big back yard....The front is even bigger...

Finally, something interesting here, besides people pissing up a rope trying to change other's views. Debate is wonderful, but I was kind of hoping I could SEE & learn something new.

Paul Mantz, Jr. wrote: Finally, something interesting here, besides people pissing up a rope trying to change other's views. Debate is wonderful, but I was kind of hoping I could SEE & learn something new.

Pissing up a rope sounds really difficult.

You just have to go slow and let it soak in to the rope fibers. Works much better with hemp rope rather than nylon too. Just practice and you'll get there.

P.S. let me know if you need any pointers on "arguing with dead horses". Lol

Jacob10000 wrote: You just have to go slow and let it soak in to the rope fibers. Works much better with hemp rope rather than nylon too. Just practice and you'll get there.

P.S. let me know if you need any pointers on "arguing with dead horses". Lol

Yea, but hemp rope might leave splinters. Yikes!!!

Jacklpe wrote:

Big Tex wrote: Very frightening thread. Thank God the Constituion is a living document meant to be amended, to reflect the times. Otherwise, I'd still be owned as property and counted as 3/5 of a person. Not to mention illiterate.

... That ALL men are created equal. It just took the damn fools a long time to figure it out.

We (or at least darn sure me) just want to keep it that way.

Don't mistake one train of thought with another... Just as a lot of conservatives think all liberals are gun grabbing, communist tree hugging Prius driving no common sense destroy the earth trying to save it bed wetting philanthropists with anyone's money but their own tax and spend pie in the sky idiots, there are about as many stereotypes about us. Honestly, neither are true. "All" is never all. And the worst offenders that Ive ever known of the stuff you speak of, in my travels, are in places, and hold political beliefs that you would never dream. Pm me if you'd like a further explanation, cause I don't wanna go near it on here due to the sh@7storm that will surely follow. (Tex only!)

Very true. What I meant was that the Constitution was designed to be amended, and our Founding Fathers left it for posterity to figure out the needed changes, not necessarily the merits of "all men are equal". Sorry about the confusion. I coulda used universal suffrage to make the same point.

I'm with Tex. Protecting citizens from an oppressive state is a completely anachronistic argument. You have a thriving liberal democracy. Use it to take the nation forward. Allow laws to be modified in the same way that they have in so many areas of health and safety.

Ronnie Biggs wrote: I'm with Tex. Protecting citizens from an oppressive state is a completely anachronistic argument. You have a thriving liberal democracy. Use it to take the nation forward. Allow laws to be modified in the same way that they have in so many areas of health and safety.

Sorry but its actually a constitutional republic. There is a bit of a difference... Forward (one of Mao's favorite buzzwords) is nice, as long as you don't slide off of the foundation that has supported all of these wonderful things so far. To me its like a Jenga puzzle. You can keep building up and adding to, but if you pull the wrong piece out of the bottom it's going to come crashing down.

I must be feeling mighty cliche this morning

Y'all be the judge I bought this gun for my mother in law, she's all excited about going out this weekend to try it out... Does this make me a bad person? I'm sure others have mother in laws to...

I don't understand Bobbysox. Are you saying that the current government is despotic, destructive, and oppressive??

Big Tex wrote: I don't understand Bobbysox. Are you saying that the current government is despotic, destructive, and oppressive??

Not yet, but it is trying harder every day...

Bobbysox wrote:

Ronnie Biggs wrote: I'm with Tex. Protecting citizens from an oppressive state is a completely anachronistic argument.

then i guess out forefather were anarchists....and as thus, i guess i am as well. ANY government can reduce itself into despotism. show me a govenment that has lasted that test for more than 500 years. how will you exercise your right if your govenment becomes destructive? you may ( and i hope ) never have to exercize that right in your generation...but that right protects you in the sad event you must.

i give to you your declaration of independance...the foundation of your constitution.............
................"...............

I said it was an ANACHRONISTIC argument, not ANARCHIC. Funny, but by quoting the declaration word for word you actually demonstrate the point I was making. The declaration was made in the context of freeing Americans (by the way, only the white, non-native christian ones) from and protecting them from an unelected, despotic English elite.

Of course I don't know of a government that has lasted more than 500 years (perhaps the Roman or Ottoman empires?) but 500 years is is a very long time in modern social development. Do you honestly think that your democratic system is still infant and vulnerable, as it possibly was at the time of independence?

By the way Jackipe, I know the USA is constitutional republic. The term 'liberal democracy' is more an expression of the moral philosophy that drives your processes of government and law making. Britain is not republic, but it also enjoys the pain and joy of liberal democracy.

Ronnie Biggs wrote:

Bobbysox wrote:

Ronnie Biggs wrote: I'm with Tex. Protecting citizens from an oppressive state is a completely anachronistic argument.

then i guess out forefather were anarchists....and as thus, i guess i am as well. ANY government can reduce itself into despotism. show me a govenment that has lasted that test for more than 500 years. how will you exercise your right if your govenment becomes destructive? you may ( and i hope ) never have to exercize that right in your generation...but that right protects you in the sad event you must.

i give to you your declaration of independance...the foundation of your constitution.............

I said it was an ANACHRONISTIC argument, not ANARCHIC. Funny, but by quoting the declaration word for word you actually demonstrate the point I was making. The declaration was made in the context of freeing Americans (by the way, only the white, non-native christian ones) from and protecting them from an unelected, despotic English elite.

Of course I don't know of a government that has lasted more than 500 years (perhaps the Roman or Ottoman empires?) but 500 years is is a very long time in modern social development. Do you honestly think that your democratic system is still infant and vulnerable, as it possibly was at the time of independence?

By the way Jackipe, I know the USA is constitutional republic. The term 'liberal democracy' is more an expression of the moral philosophy that drives your processes of government and law making. Britain is not republic, but it also enjoys the pain and joy of liberal democracy.

I don't think it is as vulnerable from the outside, but it is very vulnerable from the inside. (You know, that whole "foreign and domestic" thing. It is largely taken for granted, manipulated by both political aisles for personal gain, and the average person on the street knows little to nothing about it or how and why it was created.

HOLY CRAP!!! It worked!!
ParrotHead I'm sooooo sorry
I swear I didn't know it was Loaded






But man you can Dance....

This is how you DON´T handle a gun or a rifle.

Why just why do you do a thing like that...

Thats a enigma in the makeings there.

Dr Dave wrote: HOLY CRAP!!! It worked!!
ParrotHead I'm sooooo sorry
I swear I didn't know it was Loaded

But man you can Dance....

WHY DOES THIS POOR DOG LOOK LIKE HE'S STRUNG OUT ON CRACK???!!

Bobbysox wrote:

Big Tex wrote: I don't understand Bobbysox. Are you saying that the current government is despotic, destructive, and oppressive??

i am saying any government can transform into that. people usually think they are too smart and too intelligent to repeat the mistakes made in history...but history keeps getting repeated.

sorry ronnie i get a spot of dyslexia from time to time and transpose letters in words. but the declaration of independance was exactly that...and at that juncture was separating from the english crown. but it also declared the rights of all men which our country struggled with came to grips with. the forefathers did not create an instant utopia but a foundation upon which future generations were to build...and they gave protections and mechanisms to both see it be built upon and to ensure that it stays in the hands of the people that was created to serve. any government is vulnerable and is more so if the people have no recourse.

Whoa!! I get that any government that allows the Kardashians, Honey Boo Boo and Jersey Shore to stay on TV may seem oppressive and despotic....

Seriously though, all this talk of our government being oppressive is silly at best, and dangerously seditious at worst. I am no Constitutional expert, nor am I able to speak intelligently about the Western European republican/parliamentary governments either. I think that all of you have been very respectful of each other's views, even the far left ones like mine, and I applaud each member brave and willing enough to voice their opinion.

That being said, it really bothers me on a personal level that the American government can be similarly compared to any of the despotic, tyrannical, dictatorial regimes that have shown the worst in human behavior. "If the people have no recourse"??? Folks, we don't live in anything but a free society. Sure, 9/11 has changed how we live forever. The government has had to ensure the safety of our country and it's citizens in ways we couldn't have imagined growing up. Being protected by two oceans has made us insular in our thinking and protected us for the most part from the kind of political violence Europe saw in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. I only worked for the government for a short time, both in the military and as a civilian, but one thing I can say for sure is that the government has contingency plans for everything, no matter how bizzare or far fetched. I've been privy to some of them, and all I could do is shake my head. Sometimes a little show of force domestically is not necessarily always intended for us...

I fully believe that the social, economic, historical, and political conditions that allowed Mao, Hitler, and Stalin to rise to power do not exist within our present socio-economic state.

* What helped Hitler's rise to power were the weakness of the Weimar republic, the crushing war reparations that Germany owed the Allies after WW1, coupled with the Great Depression which was a world-wide and not just an American crisis.

* Historically, Germany was a country that was only unified in 1871; Hitler became Chancellor barely 60 years aftwards. However, the US had been a democracy nearly 100 years by 1871, and more than 150 years by the time Hitler ascended in 1933.

* Also hstorically, Russia, China, and Germany were countries that were hundreds, if not thousands of years old, with governments and power always held by kings, emperors, tzars, rulers, etc. There still is no democracy in China, and it can be argued that Russia is still experimenting with a form of democracy. Only Germany has successfully fully changed it's govenment, and it can be argued that WW2 helped them by forcing the German government into a post-war constitution resembling that of the Western Allied powers. Same argument can be said of Japan.

* None of the three above mentioned examples had anything closely resembling our Bill of Rights. There was no free speech, or assembling to petition the government. There were no other political parties allowed other than the one that was in charge. Dissedents were killed or sent off to labor camps. China still does. None of these conditions exist in the US, UK, or elsewhere in western Europe.

* Religion was not allowed, heck, nothing was allowed that would/could compete for the overarching authority of The State. The exception being that Stalin used the Eastern Orthodox church to help mobilize the masses for the defense of The Motherland during WW2. Not only is religion allowed here, but ALL religions are protected by the Constitution, and they thrive here in the US.

* For the most part, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and Mao's China are ethnically homogenous. It can be much easier for a State to control a group of people who share common language, culture, ideals, and histories. All three of these examples have milennia of what it means to be a good German, Russian, or Chinese citizen. The best part of our country is the melting pot that takes the best of people from all over the world, and blends together to create what is uniquely American to us all. The fact that we can peacefully go from a right leaning, conservative Republican from Texas to a liberal, African American who's a product of the Chicago political machine speaks more about our acceptance of just about anything than what we can print or speak about.

We can almost speak about anything, say about anything, criticize about anything, or not care about anything. We don't have to show identification papers to go from one state to the other. The government doesn't dictate how many children we are allowed to have. Nor is it held hostage by some religion that preaches hatred towards certain other religions or groups of people, or keep our women contained as second class citizens. Some of the best humor there is are the political spoofs of our national leaders that we watch on TV, or see printed as cartoons in our newspapers. I am not for doing away with anyone's 2nd amendment rights, I just personally believe that civilians do not need to have military grade assault weapons. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. The sad fact that a Navy Seal sniper was killed last week by a vet suffering from PTSD only exemplifies that the issue is a complex one with no easy answers.

I guess I need to wrap this up. I strongly feel that what is wrong about America is not so great that what is right about America can't fix it. The oath I took as member of the the military stated that I swore to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Part of that document preserves the right of every American to private ownership of firearms. But most importantly, it also means that the government is for the protection of it's citizens, and that the citizens have the right to change their government peacefully through elections. We fought for our independence because we tried everything we could (mostly peacefully) with King George II and his government, and felt it necessary to fight for what we believed. We don't have a tyranny now. If you think that government is the problem, then the solution is not to arm yourself even more, but to vote for those candidates that represent exactly how you feel, or better yet, run for public office yourself and represent others who feel the same as you do. It offends me as a vet that the peaceful process of change guaranteed by the Constitution, and paid for by the blood of so many, is scorned by those who feel that the only way to "protect" themselves is to take up arms against the very nation that guarantees your freedom and protection in the first place. You stocking up on personal weapons is not going to guarantee you your freedom. All that is is lazy citizenship. You using your ballot to run them out of office scares them more.

If I've offended any of you, blame the Constitution for allowing me to speak my piece.

Tex,
Well put. My daily karma goes to you.

Very nice Te...zzzzz......zzzzzz oh sorry....


No really, very well put. I agree with what I think your main point was... Use your vote. No I don't believe there's a great conspiracy to overthrow the nation from within. Whether I agree with the current administration or not, the fact remains that, through change over the decades, we saw fit to implement term limits for the top office and many others. This forces change to some degree and offers the opportunity for the people to determine which direction that change goes.

However, I also agree that when limits are imposed, even in the slightest ways, related to constitutional rights, it sets precedents that make folks uneasy.. This is not just the second amendment to which i am referring. A little bit of my rights under the 4th amendment were sacrificed under the patriot act. Search and seizure without due cause scares the hell out of me and the nation as majority didn't, IMO, seem to mind. That scares me even worse. So I understand the"urge" to stockpile when there seems to be some sort of limitation imposed on firearm ownership. In the extreme, it's paranoia. In a moderate view it could go as far as prudent. No, common citizens shouldn't be toting full automatic assault rifles or grenade launchers, etc., but I don't begrudge folks the couple extra boxes of ammo.

Thanks for taking the time to put together this post. Albeit, long winded Once again the this the type of exchanges I was hoping would come up.

Ronnie Biggs wrote: Tex,
Well put. My daily karma goes to you.

Thank you Ronnie and PH. I think that in this country it is not only permissible to question our leaders it's our responsibility! America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You have to want it bad. If we feel that our leaders are out of place, they know it realtime with all the polling that seems to go on continually, and those that get it, get to keep their jobs.

I wish that we had term limits for our members of Congress. It feels that they spend more time trying to be re-elected than pay attention to their constituents. I don't think that this is going to be an easy problem to solve witha a quick solution. I know that the process works, just not always on our timetable. How long were people complaining about the full bodyscans at the airports that the TSA just decided last week to get rid of?