.
Kindly Clarify:
Spawn killing planes by tank just behind the runway, from where the plane spawn in CTF mission? Is this a bannable offense?

Zuperman, most of the players know what things to avoid else they may be banned or muted but still many players show their ignorance (till u ban or mute them) that they doesn’t know about it or the same in not mentioned by you.

Will you be kind enough to quote few things which one should avoid else they may be banned or muted. This post will serve as reference and will be kind of warning to all those who doesn’t listen and use unfair tactics or foul language during game or on world chat.

Thank you.

Note: Forum members may also raise issues on which they want clarification from zuperman.

Ban ban ban

why do I need to clarify anything? constant spawn killing is not allowed. When was it?

The reason to clarify, is because many people are confused as to what actually is either frowned upon or they can be banned for.

Also, people are reporting players that spawn kill, tank spawn kill, taking advantage of glitches, using foul language, etc. but nothing seems to happen to those players, thus some people think that they can do whatever they want, because there are no repercussions for their actions.

Thus, if you were to make a post that actually stated (clarified) what actions will lead to a player being punished, then there wouldn't be any confusion.

yes terday zup it was mig 29 he admits it in his rely i think you shouldnt ban these folks forever 4 weeks would be a good deterrent and then if they repeat offenders then perm ban

i agree with eagle but maybe when you start the game there is a list of dos and donts like when you agree to terms and conditions with use of any software

Here is a play that gives two good examples on why you need to clarify:

"Basically tank spaw.killing is in grey area if u dont do it constantly which basically says you can tank spawnkill but take a break before each time u do. Am i getting that wrong thats all Imnot supporting TSK but with zup replied back with is basically saying that"

and this one:

"Guys really read what zup said CONSTANT so if he or they dont tank spawnkill every time then basically is not against the rules just saying u may think it means oe thing and someone else another but as zup said consant has to happen over and over

And again I am not supporting anything I am just stating the obvious and that I will be consant about lol"

I wasnt supporting people that tsk but if u go by what consant means then like what i said as what u quoted to each person can mean different ways thats all i was meaning with those post. But as for like say u consant is well last game he tsk me.and this game he did too even if it was once yall would be like well thats consant he should get a ban blah blah blah right

Then heres thel other people
Damn dude let us get off the ground Tskin which is (takeing out whole team over and over )

Now to me the first example is completely fine who care take off and go and well they second is consant enough for the ban. Those who do the first example yeah knows what there doing is wrong but in a since its in the grey area of tank spawnkilling. Now thats how I see it.

zuperman wrote: why do I need to clarify anything? constant spawn killing is not allowed. When was it?

Hey Zup,

The "rules" really aren't obviously spelled out anywhere . I appreciate the general guidelines that Slenderman lined out in the thread which has been stickied and locked in the gossip section:
*Read before posting* Forum Rules/Etiquette

17. (In game only) Do not team kill, destroy our own bases or anything else that would be deemed "gameplay ruining"


And you've also made a few posts such as:

zuperman wrote: Guys, I'm disappointed that I always have to modify stuff so people don't abuse the system.

I mean, it's common sense and it hurts you otherwise. I'm talking now about letting players take off. In the past 3 days every time I log in,someone different is flying around the enemy airport and then shooting players before they take off.

Problem? Well, usually they are new people who just playing for the first or second time, after 2 minutes without any hope because usually the person doing this is a way higher rank, they leave the game and NEVER come back, writing reviews saying the game is boring.

I find myself alone on my team while this person flying is just collecting points. Obviously if they know who I am, they stop, but since I'm not always playing it's just bothers me that this person is not able to have some kind of manners towards players.

So what now? I'm forced to add an inmunity option for maybe 30 seconds after take off, or maybe just ban everyone that shoots me 2 times before i take off with a message that says "you are a jerk" or similar
you get the idea. let others have fun and you'll have fun. My idea of fun is not to login and leave myself alone on my side with no enemies playing.

from Let people take off


But I have to say, there is no single thread, post or contract that players can refer "rule breakers" to. The recent troll Ch@os or =@= (or whatever his name was) was asking people to tell him where he could find the rules and no one was able to give him a straight answer. That's what inspired me to create The [NLR] Library~Dogfight 'Law'

Before he "left" dogfight, wig had been working on drafting an official set of rules. Ugg. He shared a copy with me and it was the driest, most didactic writing I'd ever seen from him. I think Dogfight is better off never having to adopted such an inclusive rule of law. I definitely prefer that the game have a wide latitude when it comes to rules. The user agreement lines out how the moderators and staff have full discretion to determine whose behavior is "gameplay ruining" and to ban or mute as consequences but there are no moderators to keep an eye on the game on a regular basis.

You have recommended that players use the in-game reporting system and the reporting system in world chat to inform you of problem players. Is that system being useful? Is the blacklist useful? If so, many of the people making the complaints seem to want some sort of feed back. If you could provide some it may help to make them feel heard; well, on the other hand, it may just encourage them to police the game to a point of misery.

I believe that it would be good to have one post of all "official rules" for the game. Just putting it out in one place which can be easily found and referenced could help settle some of the friction here. There really don't need to be many rules, but it would be good to have them clearly stated. The same post should include a list of possible consequences and a description of how you might determine when enough is enough. Once again, if there is a lot of latitude and discretion involved, that too should be clearly stated.

Thanks for your consideration.

McFate



PS: It's too bad that this alone can't be enough:

Very well said McFate.

I don't think we need to write the rules every 6 months. The idea is very simple: anything that could ruin the game for you or other players if repeated constantly is not allowed.
There is no need to repeat it for every single specific case that may arise: now you can tank on this corner of the map, is it allowed to spawn kill? Now you can jump with one leg on a building, is it allowed to spawn kill there?

To me is pretty obvious, we already said no spawn killing.

Do we really need to spell out a rule book when you know you are ruining the game for all the other team? If you know it is ruining the game, you know it is wrong. Trying to excuse it with: where are the rules? It's like pissing on the kitchen of a bar and say that there is no sign saying it's forbidden.

I agree with you Zup, however, many people interpret what ruins a game differently, or they just don't care. Look at Khaos King, what seems pretty obvious he keeps wanting to play semantics with. You said "If you know it's ruining the game, you know it is wrong. Trying to excuse it with: where are the rules? It's like pissing on the kitchen of a bar and say that there is no sign saying it's forbidden." Absolutely, any reasonable person would get it, but there are many in this game that seem to not get (or care) this simple concept.

Just last night I (and others) was being spawnkilled by black devil bubi (a moraf who should know better), and there are threads about him saying he should be banned because of his actions, and he is still doing it over and over.

For some of these people that like to play with semantics, and say things like (this is a war game, there are no rules), they will do anything just to win, and if there aren't any repercussions for their actions, that leads them to believe they can do what they want.

Sure, there are glitches, and any reasonable person would think that when a glitch pops up, they won't take advantage of them, but as others have said, they will utilize anything that is given to them. I have seen some that fully know they are invisible keep playing, or some that know landing on the carrier turns you invisible in a tank, and they still use it. The worst ones are the ones that then say they don't support such actions, even when they do it themselves (aka hypocrites).

I have been in many games where after shooting someone close to the allied base, I ignore their chute so I can fight off the other reds, only to then see they are still on the map and bombing the hangers in their tank. If I suspected they could land close and tank, then I would have wasted my time trying to shoot them down. I have also seen many morafs take advantage of these glitches, or at least not say anything when their team member utilizes a glitch. They know it is giving them an unfair advantage, but they don't care, because they only care about winning.

What McFate says is good, if there is one specific area with specific rules that players can't question, it would be a good thing. But also with the rules, should be the actions you will take against them, e.g. muting, banning for a month, banning for a year, or life time ban, etc.

IT SHOULD BE BY RUNWAY NOT BEHIND RUNWAY THERE IS A DIFFERENCE...AND WE ALL KNOW HOW TO GET AROUND THINGS IF THERE NOT WORDED MORE SPECIFICELY...TY MEAN FOKKER

[NLR] The Blue Fighter wrote: .
Kindly Clarify:
Spawn killing planes by tank just behind the runway, from where the plane spawn in CTF mission? Is this a bannable offense?

Zuperman, most of the players know what things to avoid else they may be banned or muted but still many players show their ignorance (till u ban or mute them) that they doesn’t know about it or the same in not mentioned by you.

Will you be kind enough to quote few things which one should avoid else they may be banned or muted. This post will serve as reference and will be kind of warning to all those who doesn’t listen and use unfair tactics or foul language during game or on world chat.

Thank you.

Note: Forum members may also raise issues on which they want clarification from zuperman.

MEAN FOKKER wrote: IT SHOULD BE BY RUNWAY NOT BEHIND RUNWAY THERE IS A DIFFERENCE...AND WE ALL KNOW HOW TO GET AROUND THINGS IF THERE NOT WORDED MORE SPECIFICELY...TY MEAN FOKKER

You're correct about people will try and get around the rules if it's not worded specifically by saying things like "it says 'behind the runway' but I'm on the side", etc. etc.

Just like Zup says, it should be common sense, but as we know in the same, not many play with common sense, or a sense of fairness.

I still like my idea of building a wall around the bases, so that planes can land and take off, but a tank can't get through, and won't have a direct line of site to the hangers or runway. If they want to bomb, they have to try and lob over the wall, or be further away where they naturally will be going over the wall. That would eliminate the tank spawn killing.

YES EAGLE ...BUT TANKS CAN ALSO HAVE A BOUNDARY..AND BOUNDARY CAN BE NO FARTHER THAN ALLOWED TO SPAWN IN TANK WITHOUT ADDING MORE GRAPHICS WICH I THINK CAUSES LAG..AND THE ISSUE IS SOME PPL HAVE NO COMMON SENSE...SERIOUSLY...SAD BUT TRUE

E*A*G*L*E wrote:

MEAN FOKKER wrote: IT SHOULD BE BY RUNWAY NOT BEHIND RUNWAY THERE IS A DIFFERENCE...AND WE ALL KNOW HOW TO GET AROUND THINGS IF THERE NOT WORDED MORE SPECIFICELY...TY MEAN FOKKER...

You're correct about people will try and get around the rules if it's not worded specifically by saying things like "it says 'behind the runway' but I'm on the side", etc. etc.

Just like Zup says, it should be common sense, but as we know in the same, not many play with common sense, or a sense of fairness.

I still like my idea of building a wall around the bases, so that planes can land and take off, but a tank can't get through, and won't have a direct line of site to the hangers or runway. If they want to bomb, they have to try and lob over the wall, or be further away where they naturally will be going over the wall. That would eliminate the tank spawn killing.

[NLR] McFate wrote:

zuperman wrote: why do I need to clarify anything? constant spawn killing is not allowed. When was it?

Hey Zup,

The "rules" really aren't obviously spelled out anywhere . I appreciate the general guidelines that Slenderman lined out in the thread which has been stickied and locked in the gossip section:
*Read before posting* Forum Rules/Etiquette

17. (In game only) Do not team kill, destroy our own bases or anything else that would be deemed "gameplay ruining"


And you've also made a few posts such as:

zuperman wrote: Guys, I'm disappointed that I always have to modify stuff so people don't abuse the system.

I mean, it's common sense and it hurts you otherwise. I'm talking now about letting players take off. In the past 3 days every time I log in,someone different is flying around the enemy airport and then shooting players before they take off.

Problem? Well, usually they are new people who just playing for the first or second time, after 2 minutes without any hope because usually the person doing this is a way higher rank, they leave the game and NEVER come back, writing reviews saying the game is boring.

I find myself alone on my team while this person flying is just collecting points. Obviously if they know who I am, they stop, but since I'm not always playing it's just bothers me that this person is not able to have some kind of manners towards players.

So what now? I'm forced to add an inmunity option for maybe 30 seconds after take off, or maybe just ban everyone that shoots me 2 times before i take off with a message that says "you are a jerk" or similar
you get the idea. let others have fun and you'll have fun. My idea of fun is not to login and leave myself alone on my side with no enemies playing.

from Let people take off


But I have to say, there is no single thread, post or contract that players can refer "rule breakers" to. The recent troll Ch@os or =@= (or whatever his name was) was asking people to tell him where he could find the rules and no one was able to give him a straight answer. That's what inspired me to create The [NLR] Library~Dogfight 'Law'

Before he "left" dogfight, wig had been working on drafting an official set of rules. Ugg. He shared a copy with me and it was the driest, most didactic writing I'd ever seen from him. I think Dogfight is better off never having to adopted such an inclusive rule of law. I definitely prefer that the game have a wide latitude when it comes to rules. The user agreement lines out how the moderators and staff have full discretion to determine whose behavior is "gameplay ruining" and to ban or mute as consequences but there are no moderators to keep an eye on the game on a regular basis.

You have recommended that players use the in-game reporting system and the reporting system in world chat to inform you of problem players. Is that system being useful? Is the blacklist useful? If so, many of the people making the complaints seem to want some sort of feed back. If you could provide some it may help to make them feel heard; well, on the other hand, it may just encourage them to police the game to a point of misery.

I believe that it would be good to have one post of all "official rules" for the game. Just putting it out in one place which can be easily found and referenced could help settle some of the friction here. There really don't need to be many rules, but it would be good to have them clearly stated. The same post should include a list of possible consequences and a description of how you might determine when enough is enough. Once again, if there is a lot of latitude and discretion involved, that too should be clearly stated.

Thanks for your consideration.

McFate



PS: It's too bad that this alone can't be enough:

The golden rule of Dogfight:
"Let others have fun and you'll have fun."
From Let people take off (By zuperman)

I agree. On other forums there are some topics that are locked on the top of the first page. You have to look over them to move down the page to the post you want. No comments allowed. Easily found, your business if you choose not to look them over, no excuse if you dont know what they say. State the rules simply and leave it at that.
As in:
1. Do not tank spawnkill.
2. Do not shoot your teammates on purpose.
3. Do not bomb your own hangers.
Report these acts on another thread with pictures, and the bad actors can have a vacation.

zuperman wrote: I don't think we need to write the rules every 6 months. The idea is very simple: anything that could ruin the game for you or other players if repeated constantly is not allowed.
There is no need to repeat it for every single specific case that may arise...

Zup,

I agree. But my point is that there is no single place where this is obviously posted. There is no need to line out every "game ruining" situation. Yes, it is clear to those of us who have spent a lot of time on the forum but someone who is new or is not very familiar with the forum will have a tough time finding any mention of any official stance held by you/echoboom, whether it be "common sense" or not. Slenderman' s "read before posting" thread is locked. It cannot be bumped. The title does not imply that this is where you would find the in-game rules.

I'm just suggesting that you make one clearly labeled, easy to find thread that can be permanently stickied in gossip or announcements.




If you simply made a thread something like:

"Rules for playing Dogfight"

Anyone who plays in a way that takes unfair advantage of other players may be subject to discipline. Things that are "unfair" should be common sense such as: don't shoot blue teammates or bomb your own hangars, don't shoot planes before they can take off, or don't take advantage of glitches for which there is no defense. The game has been designed to allow for many different play styles and everyone is free to play as they wish as long as it does not prevent others from playing a fair game.

Foul language is not allowed. Many bad words will trigger an automatic mute. Using alternative spellings to avoid the filters or making vulgar descriptions is also forbidden.

Complaints may be made against players by using the in-game reporting system by clicking on their name in the in-game score board or on world chat. A single or an occasional report will be unlikely to trigger any disciplinary action but a pattern of abuse will earn consequences.

If you play so that others may have fun, you will have fun.





A single thread such as this may save you from a lot of further requests for clarification.

Zup,

Here again is more evidence as to why you need to clarify the rules. This comes from MiG.29 on the thread " MIG.29 Tank Spawnkilling- How to deal such player? .

Another thing is that I use everything game allows me. If it allows shooting planes with tank even though they're immune to bullets I don't mind using it. If it is an illegal action then game shouldn't allow this or let planes take-off faster than tank refilling time or keep planes immune against tanks as well.

In older versions of the game tank refilling time was longer than a plane's take-off time (this was when we had Leopard tanks instead of Renault ones). So planes could take-off before a tank fire. But in newer versions of the game you can buy faster tank refilling which makes the refilling time faster than any plane's take-of time. This is a bug in the game and probably Zup ignored this or forgot this timing when he have the option to buy this faster tank refilling opportunity.

So spawn killing is a subjective term. If you're protecting your team mates getting killed by enemy then in my view all killing is legal and there is no spawn killing. Namely best enemy is the one on ground in dogfighting so that they cannot hurt you and your team mates.

Consecutive spawn killing is also subjective. If my team mate carrying flag uses a Siemens plane then he can escape back to our base fast enough so one killing may be enough to buy him some time but if he is using an Albatross plane for example then enemy will catch him easily with their faster planes so you need to keep them on ground until your team mate disappears from radar.

If this is a war game there is no mercy in war and game should emulate this if it claims to be realistic.

And then he says:

Can you show me where the "game rules" are documented? Any link, etc.? Or are we talking about just wishful rules? I am expecting a link from you on rules otherwise I will totally ignore your reply because it is not based on a solid evidence.


Ok so he's still going at it Zup, here is his latest:

"This is what you think. With an empty Rules section tag you cannot ban anyone based on rumours or people's opinion. Otherwise Google and Apple can ban your game if it is escalated to a legal ground (especially if one has paid to play this game and paid for in-game buys). I won't suggest going that direction. It is easier and cheaper to populate the Rules section instead."

and...

"You continue to hope this. I am writing in general. This not necessarily means I will tank spawn. You're trying to encourage Zup to ban someone but if his game gets banned in the end it is his revenues impacted, not yours. If he wants to regulate the game then the rules must we written somewhere. I suppose he created the Rules tag for this purpose but never put anything there.

Everything else told here is subjective. Look at this sentence:

"anything that could ruin the game for you or other players if repeated constantly is not allowed".

Bombing enemy's hangars will ruin the game for your enemy because game will finish in the end. If some
one bombs hangars repetitively is not allowed. Logical?

1- Define what spam killing is in Rules
2- Define the consequences of spawn killing

Then you've right to talk about rules. Otherwise what you write remains in air.

If you start using swearwords I can use too. Perhaps you your watch your mouth (or keyboard) at first."

And the last one ...

"I don't have to search for quotes from Zup. Just search "spawn" in forum. It gives 467 pages (not entries, pages!). You cannot find anything sensible that way. Yet rules section is empty. No search is needed, just one click away but empty. If Zup has banned people because of their misbehaviour he is lucky that his game is not blocked so far because of complaints.

Again guys I am not saying I will play dishonourable but I am trying to point something general here. I am not defending repetitive spawn killing by tank or team killing etc. I would definitely piss-off if something similar happened to me but if this has had happened to me there was nothing to baseline the complaint because there is no written rule preventing this (apart from some 2 years old messages to some ex-players)."

MEAN FOKKER wrote: IT SHOULD BE BY RUNWAY NOT BEHIND RUNWAY THERE IS A DIFFERENCE...AND WE ALL KNOW HOW TO GET AROUND THINGS IF THERE NOT WORDED MORE SPECIFICELY...TY MEAN FOKKER

He is behind the runway (see image below). One can't take off and he was shooting the plane with tank shells. Even the brakes are useless when hit by tank shell. Calle did the same thing yesterday what MIG.29 was doing in the screen shot.

I have on many occasions shot a fellow blue who is tank spawn killing, and will continue to do so. I'd rather drop some points and take a 5 minute ban than endorse this type of play. I think if enough people punish these guys they will quickly change their game play