With you on this topic WTG, has gotten way out of hand. Manfred for President, ok mod will do.

bzerkbzerk wrote: With you on this topic WTG, has gotten way out of hand. Manfred for President, ok mod will do.

I second the motion: MANFRED FOR PREZ!!

Ok bzbz, im putting you on the list. Maybe you meant that Im getting out of hand, but this is one of those perks of being the ballot counter.

Speaking of that, zero opposition so far, interestinggggg.

Lol i took it that way too at first but after reading it like 10 times, i realized what he ment that he is with u(WTG) and that (the game) has gotten out of hand.

Count me IN
The sheep want on the list too....just write Sheeps
But seriously, the mods need some real power abilities now, in game and world chat.

Ok well I would like to put in my two cents. Oh crap nevermind. Just occured to me that I am married so I do not even have one red cent much less two. Well you can sign me up anyway.

I absolutely agree with this. My 10 year old girl plays this game. Lets deputize some senior gamers and lock these punks out for a bit!

Quick question before I sign.. Why was the power taken away in the first place?

I think our mods still do a pretty good job, and I'm always the cautious one regarding "over moderating," but why have mods if they don't have teeth? Also, knowing some of the background that has led up to this makes me believe that whatever limits that have been placed on our mods in the last year or so need to be removed.

In short, add my name too please.

Thanks

Jacklpe

do u guyz want me to create some stink bombs ?
Just 0.000001 dollars per bomb .
they work only on tkers,foul mouthes and also on good people.
But good people bombs cost 99999999999.999999 dollars

Full support. I want to see perma bans and mutes, three days or whatever it is should NOT be the maximum penalty.

A very good point from Donm. Why were they disempowered in the first place? Let's have that discussion. I have found the conduct of some mods to be unacceptable. Some too zealous, some neglectful and complacent, a few trying to be balanced and proactive but being overwhelmed. On the other hand I dislike the vigilante approach of the TASK list, which seems to have replaced the Blacklist.

Perhaps we should agree what kind of regime we would like to live in, then how it should be policed and what we should be obliged to do for ourselves. In flight tut-tuts and rebukes only spur on the trolls and flamers. Vigilante mob attacks only make them hate us. It is well known that most spawn killers and campers quickly learn without having to be abused and 'punished'. I believe that a lot of our responses to these players only increase isolation and disaffection. I wonder how many junior players on their first ban or public flogging have said 'screw this' and never returned. We might like this as it keeps our cosy community pure, but it's probably not good for Zup's business and therefore not good for the game.

I believe that In the long term we will do better through positive encouragement and inclusiveness. When this fails, which it will from time to time, there should be options to escalate. This is where we need the mods, who should be trustworthy people representing our will and have powers determined by us (cough....and led by manfred the merciful).

Just a few random thoughts. Is this an opportunity to reset?

Ronnie you make a good point, and to go with that i had an idea inspired by the movie 12 0' clock high. In the movie a crew made up of the squads chronic screwups is assigned to a bomber named the leper colony. What if we did it like we do in the american justice system? Hold a trial by jury, mods are the judges, squads each assign a pilot with no prior contact with the accused to sit as a member of the jury. If found guilty said pilot is assigned to a squad equipped only with aircos for the duration of their sentence (say 1 week for a first offense, escalating by a week for every successive time a pilot is found guilty) they stay in that squad until some monitoring program says they've flown the required hours after which they are either returned to their home squad or cut loose to fly solo again if they didnt already belong to a.squad. What do you guys think? Itd give them time to learn without being banned, still allow them to fly, and if you're found guilty say three times, then you're banned for a period of time. Idk, just a thought guys.

I don't know, but I hear chanting voices inside my head... well it might be an echo too.
But the voices says: world chat and segregated servers combined with toothless moderators, is like dog poop in the snow.
It isn't so bad in the winter, but when spring comes...

You have to deal with the poop sooner or later. I'd prefer that we let the moderators to be able to teach the manour spreaders a lesson, instead of waiting for it to cause a riot.

And it just so happens that I know an absolutely perfect man for this job too
Me...

knows that man is Manfred yes.

Manfred!!!!!!!!!!!......Manfred!!!!!!..........Manfred!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........

Yes Manfred was the greatest pooper-scooper of The Wild West ^DOGFIGHT!!!!

Oh and drop my name in the box/hat/toilet where ever it needs to go. Thx

I only waited this long to say something because I was trying to do it at a time that would put this back up top....... Seems like it has been staying up there pretty good tho!

Also: Manfred did do such a great gob with his duties that towards the end of his tour, he did seem to be overwhelmed. I saw allot of his time being put into researching/explaining/debating/re-explaining. Not that he was unable to do all of this but ...........gerrrrr brain pain........damn words won't come out right............... MANFRED DID A DAMN FINE JOB IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY!!!! Geshhhh (man I wish I could hire wig to write for me)

Hope you all have a great day!

BrianC219 wrote: Yes Manfred was the greatest pooper-scooper of The Wild West ^DOGFIGHT!!!!

Oh and drop my name in the box/hat/toilet where ever it needs to go. Thx

I only waited this long to say something because I was trying to do it at a time that would put this back up top....... Seems like it has been staying up there pretty good tho!

Also: Manfred did do such a great gob with his duties that towards the end of his tour, he did seem to be overwhelmed. I saw allot of his time being put into researching/explaining/debating/re-explaining. Not that he was unable to do all of this but ...........gerrrrr brain pain........damn words won't come out right............... MANFRED DID A DAMN FINE JOB IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY!!!! Geshhhh (man I wish I could hire wig to write for me)

Hope you all have a great day!

I vote aye in FULL suport.

It is well known that poor decisions were made even by mods in their era. They're mortals too, at least most of them... But those instances of bad decision-making must be weighted against the tidewave of juvenile deliquency which has swamped us lately.

Pros beat cons in my view. And cons can be managed.

Give mods authority to immediatly ban rotten eggs!

bellsaj wrote: ... like dog poop in the snow.
It isn't so bad in the winter, but when spring comes...

You have to deal with the poop sooner or later. I'd prefer that we let the moderators to be able to teach the manour spreaders a lesson, instead of waiting for it to cause a riot.
.

Ah! Yes, the spring thaw dog poop!

Anyway, give the mods some teeth!

Give the potty mouths a mute with a clear message that this is a warning that a ban is next. It should require good documentation and a warning. Make it clear to them that the only way to get their privileges back is with contrition and by posting on the blacklist thread.

As far as I am concerned the foul language is the biggest problem with this game. I don't have any other concerns that discourage me from recommending it. (Well, except for taking the blame for getting people hooked)

Oh yea, Another vote for Manfred the Just!

McFate wrote:

bellsaj wrote: ... like dog poop in the snow.
It isn't so bad in the winter, but when spring comes...

You have to deal with the poop sooner or later. I'd prefer that we let the moderators to be able to teach the manour spreaders a lesson, instead of waiting for it to cause a riot.
.

Ah! Yes, the spring thaw dog poop!

Anyway, give the mods some teeth!

Give the potty mouths a mute with a clear message that this is a warning that a ban is next. It should require good documentation and a warning. Make it clear to them that the only way to get their privileges back is with contrition and by posting on the blacklist thread.

As far as I am concerned the foul language is the biggest problem with this game. I don't have any other concerns that discourage me from recommending it. (Well, except for taking the blame for getting people hooked)

Oh yea, Another vote for Manfred the Just!

"MANFRED the MERCIFUL sweet JUDICATOR of DOGFIGHT!!!!"

Kind of a mouthful but i said it five times in a row real fast, getting a little easier...... Lol

"A very good point from Donm. Why were they disempowered in the first place? Let's have that discussion. I have found the conduct of some mods to be unacceptable. Some too zealous, some neglectful and complacent, a few trying to be balanced and proactive but being overwhelmed. On the other hand I dislike the vigilante approach of the TASK list, which seems to have replaced the Blacklist.

Perhaps we should agree what kind of regime we would like to live in, then how it should be policed and what we should be obliged to do for ourselves. In flight tut-tuts and rebukes only spur on the trolls and flamers. Vigilante mob attacks only make them hate us. It is well known that most spawn killers and campers quickly learn without having to be abused and 'punished'. I believe that a lot of our responses to these players only increase isolation and disaffection. I wonder how many junior players on their first ban or public flogging have said 'screw this' and never returned. We might like this as it keeps our cosy community pure, but it's probably not good for Zup's business and therefore not good for the game.

I believe that In the long term we will do better through positive encouragement and inclusiveness. When this fails, which it will from time to time, there should be options to escalate. This is where we need the mods, who should be trustworthy people representing our will and have powers determined by us (cough....and led by manfred the merciful).

Just a few random thoughts. Is this an opportunity to reset?"



Ronnie....I give my wholehearted agreement to this....I have said this awhile back and got publicly rebuked in forum...and was said that I was "irritating" from my response.....Thank you for saying exactly what I have tried to say in the past....I wonder if anyone from TASK or from those who submitted a petition in the past will call Ronnie "irritating"...we will see and I stand by Ronnie in every way on his response quoted from above...I'm also thankful for Ronnie that with his response the "double standards" pilots receive and the "double standards" I receive from time to time will be illiminated as well......kudos to my friend Ronnie for saying perfectly in every word

I also would like to be added to the list for both Mod powers back and Manfred's return to power but only if Manfred wants it. I can only imagine the time it takes to just review and discover the problems and the validity of the reports and he also always included full explanations of the decisions. Always fair and just but also quite a burden...I hope Manfred post if he would even like to go back before we all push for it...

SnidleyWhiplash wrote: I also would like to be added to the list for both Mod powers back and Manfred's return to power but only if Manfred wants it. I can only imagine the time it takes to just review and discover the problems and the validity of the reports and he also always included full explanations of the decisions. Always fair and just but also quite a burden...I hope Manfred post if he would even like to go back before we all push for it...

True dat true dat!!! I just really like to say........


"MANFRED the MERCIFUL sweet JUDICATOR of DOGFIGHT!!!!"

Lol catchy don't yah think???
EDIT: sorry cracking myself up again....

I vote "yes" Whose on mod power and Blacklist power back...and I stand by my support for Ronnie Biggs on his response as well....it appears he should be added to the "yes" column as well on this petition too

doughens wrote: I vote "yes" Whose on mod power and Blacklist power back...and I stand by my support for Ronnie Biggs on his response as well....it appears he should be added to the "yes" column as well on this petition too

Im counting Ronnie Biggs as undecided/no vote for now. Seems he would like to hear more which is fine.

The point of the thread is to make it clear to Zup that many feel the game is under-policed at this time, and let Zup run with it as he sees fit.

McFate was on the line but i counted him for his "give the mods some teeth" statement.

Atharv Bhat: interesting idea, about the stink bombs. If youd like to sign/vote yes, let us know

I believe Manfred will be filling us in with some more background, thank you in advance.

I told Whose that I would respond at length, perhaps in tangent, and he said that it would work fine in the original thread. Whose, you might realize your mistake in about 1000 words.

Before we try to define Nirvana here, let’s recognize that Nirvana is different depending on who you are: really active players, really active players on the forum, the general population of players, moderators, and Zuperman. If you think about it, “best” is VERY different for these various constituents. Keep that in mind as I ramble on and respond to various comments in the thread so far.

HISTORY:

In our previous world, Zup gave the mods (which included me at the time) the ability to ban and mute. Originally, these had to be turned on and off manually. While nothing was put in print, the eventual moderating mode evolved to the following:

• Someone reported on the blacklist or privately to a moderator. Report ideally included: what was done/said, attempts to get the player to stop their abuse, the player’s response, and screenshots of ideally everything, but at least of the offense itself. Reporters with lots of positive playing and reporting history were given high credibility, and their word descriptions could sometimes replace the need for a screenshot. Players without much playing or reporting history needed a great deal of clarity supported by screenshots for a moderator to act.
• The responding moderator might ask clarifying questions, either on the blacklist thread or by PM. Sometimes (but not often), if a case was on the hairy brink of rule breaking, or the accused player had tons of really positive history but now was accused with clear evidence, the mod might take the case to the moderator forum for a round of discussion. But typically, a single mod judged and acted, for simplicity.
• If satisfied that evidence and intent were clear, the moderator would enact the ban and/or mute, and state the time span. Ideally this would be made transparent on the blacklist thread.
• In the meantime, if the offending player had questions or problems, they could PM a mod or make their case on the blacklist thread.
• At the end of the ban/mute timeframe, the moderator would unban/unmute the player.

Note that the amount of moderator coverage varied somewhat. I really tried like heck to get to every single report to assess credibility and act (or not). Other mods did the same. The way it turned out, we would all chip in to the daily reads and resulting bans/mutes. I was generally the cleanup guy when we went long stretches and piled up a backlog in the thread.

This was not perfect, because mods are people too. Yes I made some mistakes in the too-aggressive direction (three, if memory serves), where not enough evidence was supplied or my own personal observations were out of context. I also made some mistakes in the leave-it-alone-I-don’t-want-to-deal-with-it direction. I’m sure other mods made some mistakes as well. But they were few and far between, and the GREAT majority of the moderator actions were just and fair, if not timely. Due to some players’ feedback, I wound up pretty adamant about transparency and normally posted everything on the blacklist thread; most other mods did too, and a couple mods did some bans/mutes with less transparency.

CHANGES:

Zup said that in the above scenario, he was getting buried in email complaints from banned players. Whether they were righteous complaints or whines, a great number of them went to Zup’s email, enough to distract him from game improvements and bug fixes. That the bans were generally just and fair did not give Z any fewer emails. The simple fact was that he felt that too much of his time was taken addressing these emails.

Right or wrong, Zup’s solution to his email inundation problem was to ask us to back off on bans and mutes. He especially addressed me, because I had the bulk of the moderator actions, by two orders of magnitude. Twice, he dug up the ban numbers, posted them to the mod group, and chastised me for nailing so many players. Twice, I (and some of the mods) told him that these were all in response to solid reports on the blacklist thread. By the second time, I saw that my objectives were different from Zup’s, and I began to take some distance from moderating. For whatever reason, ban/mute tools were having problems at that time, perhaps because of some new time limits (see below), and the unreliability of tools finally set me off and I gave up on moderating.

Zup’s other change around this time was to impose a time limit on bans and mutes. I’m not sure why he did this, but if I were to speculate, it might have been to shorten the length of time of a ban/mute and thus decrease the span of time that a player might be incited to email Zup. In combination with having the moderators back off from 100% coverage of credible reports, this would help decrease the email complaint load. At that time, I disagreed with both changes, and it set my resolve to not moderate. (Not to mention that the inability of mod tools to handle players like MagentaBaron REALLY pissed me off.)

RESULTS:

I assume that Zup has decreased his email load, but I don’t know first-hand. Another outcome is that coverage of blacklist reports has decreased to well below 100% (whether by mod response to Zup’s desire to decrease bans, or by the lower total bandwidth following my departure, or both). Yet another outcome is that, because the coverage is so low, players witnessing abuse are reporting less to the blacklist (see the TASK thread for evidence of this). So… has the number of teamkillers and pottymouths increased? Sure, but the population of total players also has increased. A LOT. Would going back to longer bans/mutes and closer to 100% blacklist coverage make an impact on the proliferation of teamkillers and pottymouths? THIS is the ultimate question, isn’t it?

I certainly believe that the current 2-day ban has no teeth. Hell, if I were so inclined, I’d shoot blue players in the back, laugh about it, cuss out their mommas, and take my 40 hours off. Who plays without taking two day breaks from the game anyway? Yet, I have to believe that the 2-day timer is convenient for mods, because once you hit the ban button, you don’t have to worry about unbanning. Of course, that ease of use only works if the appropriate ban is 2 days! Auto-timer is a great idea, but it should be expanded to a variable day box. Fill in number of days, hit the button, and nothing more to do. (You should ask ACTUAL MODERATORS if they like this idea, not just me.)

I also believe that more thorough moderator coverage of blacklist reports would have an impact on offending players and straighten many out. Yes, there are some who don’t give a rat’s ass about being banned, and no 2, 4, or 10 day ban is going to change their attitude. And yes, there are players for whom a ban merely angers them and increases their teamkilling and pottymouthing… but frankly, I don’t want those players playing – just one man’s opinion, and I know others disagree.

MOD MANFRED:

I have a lot of confidence in and respect for today’s mods. They are following Zup’s policies, keeping his emails in check, and banning some of the nasties. Zup is the one who handles the serious nasties, although it can take weeks and months. Anyway, the mods are handling things well, and within Zup’s parameters. They certainly don’t need more bandwidth in the current mode.

If Z were to allow more coverage of the blacklist thread than is currently acted on, then the mods might need more bandwidth. But I’m a binary kind of guy (please don’t confuse that with bipolar). I like clarity and absolutes, and any moderation I’ve ever done (this game/forum and two yahoo forums) has strived for 100% coverage. I just don’t believe in allowing some to slide, while others who’ve done the exact same thing get moderated. It leaves this gray area of judgment where judgment doesn’t really exist, because it’s just random. Now if you could redefine the rules so that the bar is much higher, sure, I could participate in something like that, where 100% coverage of a high bar results in fewer bans.

I just don’t see those conditions ever happening here. Which is fine, it’s not my game.

WHAT WOULD I DO:

If I ruled the Dogfight world (and I DON’T) (Zup does), I would do the following:

1. Add an input field to the moderator ban/mute control. Either number of days, or date that the ban expires, whatever is easier for Zup to code and integrate into the player access logic.
2. Give appealing players a different email address other than Zup’s, that goes to the moderator group. And if Zup gets a complaining email, he can forward that straight to the mods. Maybe set up a separate mod-only forum that Zup doesn’t have to read, and keep the original mod+Zup forum for issues that truly concern Z.
3. Make sure that blacklist reports include the critical component of “What did you say to the offending player to try to get them to stop?”
4. Set expectations for the Blacklist Thread (or a different thread – that name doesn’t really convey the right meaning any more) for 100% coverage, or close to it. Rules are rules, and constant slides will cause people to think that reporting is not worthwhile, negating the whole purpose.
5. And, if Zup wants, adjust the rules. We adjusted long ago, when we understood that one-off swearing was just not a huge deal. Whatever Zup wants 100% coverage for, let’s define the line, rather than having a foggy line that has 25% coverage. Do we not care about flagrant swearing? I happen to care, because my kids like to watch over my shoulder while I play (right now, I hide my screen as I scoot by the Global Chat – sheesh, that place is crap hole). But maybe Zup doesn’t are about that, and redefining the rules can allow for 100% moderator coverage of reports without increasing bans to their previous levels. Can we simply take care of noob teamkillers with words and then bullets, and take only the habitual teamkillers who ruin game after game to the blacklist thread? Sure, I think that would work. But TASK would still have a purpose, warning others of one-time teamkillers and then escalating to Blacklist if they become habitual.
6. (EDIT) Add assignable ban messages so that moderator-banned players aren't confused by the current "5 minute" message and email Zup. Such as, "You are banned for 5 minutes" for auto-bans, and "You have been banned by a moderator" for moderator bans.

If that all happened, AND the moderators needed more bandwidth, sure, I’d love to help. But in absence of that, there are a lot of options, and I’m sure Zup and the mods could think of plenty of other folks who could help with moderation who wouldn’t be as much of a headache to Zup : ) Sometimes it’s just better to move on with new blood, ya know?

Just Manfred

"On the other hand I dislike the vigilante approach of the TASK list,"

Thanks Ronnie for these wonderful words

I warned a player the other night about language and a mute. You know it was bad if I warned him. I felt like an idiot for even suggesting the mute because I know there was no chance that would happen. It is a waste of time warning about anything. So I have surrendered on reports and warnings and policing anything but myself.

The good ol days are long gone.

The first page of the terms of dogfight you accept say that inappropriate behavior or language may result in a ban. That page should be removed.

TASK or hugs and kisses? You decide..............I'm leaning towards hugs..I have been won over.

I just want to voice my approval and give my support of Ronnie's view of TASK...(direct quote from Ronnie "vigilante justice")

Thank you Manfred very much for the information.

One thing I'd like to expand on is how many people cleaned up their act after a warning, and were never blacklisted.

I blacklisted dozens of people, and I learned quickly how to make a bulletproof case on somebody when neccessary.

Shot of the original offence
Shot of the warning, "that action can get you permanently banned on the forum blacklist!"
Shot of the players responce and/or continuation of the actions.

More often than not the players simply reformed themselfes and were never Blacklisted.

As Max said, one might now feel foolish for warning a player about their actions as nothing that stings is going to happen to the offender.

Also there is the question, is banning players bad for business? I think not. Many perm-banned players simply repurchase, and clean it up so they dont have to buy a third time. I would wager the number of people who get upset by filthy language and team killing, and never get past the free-trial version because of it, is greater than the number of people who were perm-banned before they decided to pay for the game.

Thanks again Manfred for the long post. Its a shame Zup was hard on you because your ban numbers were high. All of us who (used to) follow the Blacklist thread know that this is because you were the most willing and capable to do all that hard work. Even though you'd have rather been shooting reds with the time. I know other mods are capable of doing so much excellent work on the subject; but if I were them I wouldve been happy to relax and let Manfred handle it because you really just did such a darn great job!

Thanks to you, and all the other mods who've taken so much time to do this payless and sometimes thankless or unseen work!

I think a lot of people forget what we did before we had moderators. We used the blacklist and kept an eye out for one another. We also taught(Tasked) those that were on that list. So I wish you would not compare Task to a vigilante group or suggest as such. We did the same thing as Task before we had moderators.

Sorry WTG, I did not mean to hijack this thread.

What Just Manfred said makes absolute sense and would make a world of difference if Joaquin could implement those changes. I nominate Manfred for DogFight Law Maker! Okay I am getting a little carried away, but in all sincerity, he has the knowledge, the experience and the suggestions that are fair to get this game moving forward. Okay so maybe not law, but his suggestions are Just, fair and certainly makes a lot of sense.

Maybe we can implement that list as part of the petition to help our mods???