(NOTE: If there were a way to set up "private" or "hosted" games this issue would fall away.)


What it so difficult to understand?


The "bombing games" are not the sole territory of those who have no interest in creative strategy. There are other games which do not require bombing but there is lots of room for strategic gaming with bombs. This argument is much older than Dogfight. It is the same kind of argument as to whether or not infantry wars should be fought as battle lines or by skirmishers.

Those who liked "battle lines" wanted the opposing sides to line up horizontally facing each other... Ready, aim, fire! Nice, neat and bloody. Everyone knew what was expected of them. Orders came from above and no foot soldier was called upon to use any brains whatsoever. It was uncommon for high ranks to die in battle. They could often sip wine as they observed the conflict.

Skirmishers would use tactics to harrass the enemy. They would cut off communication and supply lines, they would poke and prod for weekness in defenses. An opprotunity to "decapitate" the enemy by assasinating their officers would be a high priority. They were often out of direct communication with the commanders and would need to improvise their plans. Individual skirmishers with the ability to asses a situation and adapt to situations were of great value.

Just like now, those who preferred battle lines would scoff at the skirmishers and call them "dishonorable" and "cheats". LAUGH OUT LOUD!!!!! Those who fought as skirmishers would prey upon those who would not adapt.


Fast forward a bit and now you have WW1 aerial tactics. Were there sneaks? Were there fighter/chasers who would protect bombers or hunt them? ... Yes! I am patronizing those who want only straight up the middle missions. Honor? Phoey! Insulting other players who play the game as they choose without breaking any rules is far more dishonorable in my opinion.

Just because someone has dropped does not mean that those carrying automatically die. If your team has a good chaser they can keep the other team busy. If the bomb-carriers would use their heads they might realize that when the enemy has dropped they can counter it with a sneak. But I suppose they consider this below them....?

Once people expect sneaks, the defenders have to change tactics by having patrols. This can make it there is no one but head-on fighters in the middle anyway. The most ridiculous thing is when someone sees a teammate drop in front of them and then reports it to the other team. Treason! Why not keep that in mind and target the reds who are trying to shoot the chaser so the chaser can cover for the bomb-carrier? Or is that too much like teamwork? Does a football or basketball team have only forwards? Does a baseball team only have basemen?

I ask you, straight up the middle guy... What sorts of tactics were ACTUALLY EMPLOYED in WW1 and what is used in modern warfare?


You can complain all you want but what good does it do for you? The game rules are not on your side. There is no way for you to make everyone agree to your style. There are several high rank experienced players who are chasers. Do you want to shame them and get them kicked? It's not going to happen. You have every right, I suppose, to complain but don't you think that after so much has been said that it's kind of pathetic?

Do you ever really consider how the game seems to a noob; to someone who has only tier 1-2-3 planes and only a few months of experience? They can go straight up the middle against experienced head on shooters over and over and their planes are less maneuverable, not as fast and they don't have the marksmanship of the higher levels. God forbid they should use their brains and try to be a little more of a challenge to kill. The head-on wonks call them cowards and cheats for not padding the stats of MORAFs?!

I seriously question the wisdom of a new player who only flies up the middle. And I seriously question the wisdom of a high rank who has not found a way to deliver bombs against a dropping enemy.



There will be so much more to this game when the narrow up-the-middle mindset goes away. I'm sorry to know that some people won't like it. But the game was designed in a way that is much better and more complex than that. It has the potential to be played like chess... but then there are those who will always prefer checkers.




Okay, lets hear it....

McFate wrote: (NOTE: If there were a way to set up "private" or "hosted" games this issue would fall away.)



What it so difficult to understand?


The "bombing games" are not the sole territory of those who have no interest in creative strategy. Sure, there are other games which don't require bombing but there is a lot of room for strategic gaming with bombs. This argument is much older than Dogfight. It is the same kind of argument as to whether or not infantry wars (historically) should be fought as battle lines or by skirmishers.

Those who liked "battle lines" wanted the opposing sides to line up facing each other... Ready, aim, fire! Nice, neat and bloody. Huge advantage was given to the side with greater numbers and better equipment. Everyone knew what was expected of them. Orders came from above and no foot soldier was called upon to use any brains whatsoever. It was uncommon for high ranks to die in battle. They could often sip wine as they observed the conflict.

Skirmishers would use tactics to harass the enemy. They would cut off communication and supply lines, they would poke and prod for weakness in defenses. An opportunity to "decapitate" the enemy by assassinating their officers would be a high priority. They were often out of direct communication with the commanders and would need to improvise their plans. Individual skirmishers with the ability to asses a situation and adapt to situations were of great value.

Just like now, those who preferred battle lines would scoff at the skirmishers and call them "dishonorable" and "cheats". LAUGH OUT LOUD!!!!! Those who fought as skirmishers would prey upon those who would not adapt.


Fast forward a bit and now you have WW1 aerial tactics. Were there sneaks? Were there fighter/chasers who would protect bombers or hunt them? ... Yes! I am patronizing those who want only straight-up-the-middle missions. Honor? Phooey! Insulting other players, who play the game as they choose without breaking any rules, seems far more dishonorable. Do you think they have less “ownership” of the game than you do?

Just because someone has dropped their bomb does not mean that those carrying automatically die. If your team has a good chaser they can keep the reds busy. If the bomb-carriers would use their heads they might realize that when the enemy has dropped they can counter it with a sneak. But I suppose they consider this below them....?

Once people expect sneaks, the defenders have to change tactics by having patrols. This can make it there is no one but head-on fighters in the middle anyway. The most ridiculous thing is when someone sees a teammate drop in front of them and then reports it to the other team. Treason! Why not keep that in mind and target the reds who are trying to shoot the chaser so the chaser can cover for the bomb-carrier? Or is that too much like teamwork? Does a football or basketball team have only forwards? Does a baseball team only have basemen?

I ask you, straight-up-the-middle guy... Which sort of tactics were ACTUALLY EMPLOYED in WW1 and are now used in modern warfare?


You can complain all you want but what good has it done? The game rules are not on your side. There is no way for you to make everyone agree to your style. There are several high rank experienced players who are chasers. Do you want to shame them and get them kicked? It's not going to happen. You have every right, I suppose, to complain but don't you think that after so much has been said that it's kind of pathetic?

Do you ever really consider how the game seems to a noob; to someone who has only tier 1-2-3 planes and only a few months of experience? They can go straight up the middle against experienced head on shooters over and over and their planes are less maneuverable, not as fast and they don't have the marksmanship of the higher levels. God forbid they should use their brains and try to be a little more of a challenge to kill! The head-on wonks call them cowards and cheats for not padding the stats of MORAFs?!

I seriously question the intelligence of a new player who only flies up the middle. And I seriously question the intelligence of a high rank who has not found a way to deliver bombs against a dropping enemy. Be honorable and play the game as it was designed: WITH OPTIONS!



There will be so much more to this game when the narrow up-the-middle mindset goes away. When “team-chat” is available it will be unstoppable. I'm sorry to know that some people won't like it. But the game was designed in a way that is much better and more complex than that. It has the potential to be played like chess... but then there are those who will always prefer checkers.



Okay, lets hear it....

Ello?

Yes I want to report this as genus.

Ok let me state on fact here. I've been in quite the few games where one red drops so a blue drops then another red drops because someone is chasing the first dropper. And on it goes then poof no one has a bomb and its just nothing more than a dog fight. Do I believe in tactics hell yes go high go to the side hell dig a hole if you want. I.just tired of hearing that guys that want to bomb should adapt. Why can't the guys that wont carry adapt to a bombing game. I adapt in non bombing games. I stay out of dog fight missions only because I just don't care to play dog fight. Now some polite have enough courtesy not to get into bombing games. I happen tolile a good long game of bombing. Will - sneak hell yes when the teams are even. Will I fly at a.little high yes don't sit there and tell me that the bombing guys don't use tactics we damn well do do we have tactics that are what a dropper wants yes the point is bombers have and use different tactics. There are three non bombing games and two bombing games. There's no real point in in fighting about it can the bombers have there games and the non bombers can have theirs

McFate're absolutely right, I'll play every game respecting one dropper Droper snaker one, I always have, there are many who do not entienden.buscad another server and stop complaining, with that way of thinking the only empobreceis game.

I dont really care what it is, just dont bite at me for doing it, cause you do it too, ill sneek all day.

Alright heres what we should do

My bread and butter is as an " up the middle Wonk ", I've become deadly as a straight on shooter. Ask anyone, but I can drop and chase. When I started in this game I stayed away from DF missions, but I made myself stay in those games to learn. I didn't want a weak point in my game play, I was afraid people would notice this and take advantage of it. So now I try to be an all around pilot. I can hold my own in any game. Their are only a handful of pilots who can give me a run for the money. McFate, you are at the top of my list. Most of the other twisters are easy prey. I have nothing but respect for you, in the air or on the forum. For all the hard work you have done to become such a great pilot, do I not deserve the same from you? The only time I say a word about a sneaker is when it's me against 6 or 7. When I'm going down the middle, and smashing my way 3/4 of the way across the field, blasting all of them 2 or 3 times before they get me. And I have to give chase on a sneaker. Don't get me wrong, I take that as a compliment. No other way to get to my base. Lately I say nothing, I just go about my business. Those are some of my most memorable games. I guess I'm just rambling on about nothing, sorry

darraxx wrote: ...I stay out of dog fight missions only because I just don't care to play dog fight....

...There are three non bombing games and two bombing games. There's no real point in in fighting about it can the bombers have there games and the non bombers can have theirs

So, you want to claim all bombing games for your style.

Nevermind how the game is designed.
Nevermind what the rules are.
Nevermind how it affects new players.
Nevermind what complaining and shaming does to the community.

You are saying that you choose not to play in dogfights but you want to choose how other people play bombing games.

All games are open to all players regardless of their tactical style. I used to share your point of view. I have my own style and I've made it well known. (see "Complaining about droppers? STFU!") The trouble is that even if I am alone against 4 someone will complain if I drop to take out a sneak or even if I use a bomb to take out a red tank. I also get complaints from many who think I've dropped while I'm still carrying! Should I fly in a straight line just for their sake?

As far as I'm concerned, other than teamkillers and the spawnkilling done by high rank players who feed on noobs, the only real trouble in Gretchland is the complainers. They make me mad because of what they say, not how they play. I consider it game ruining behavior. (just my opinion) They make me feel like going on a spawnkilling spree. There are many posts by many pilots who say they only camp/spawnkill/drop when someome complains about it, so obviously I'm not the only one. You are asking for a courtesy from people by insisting they limit how they play the bombing games.

Sorry. No. The up-the-middle bombers don't get to enforce their own rules. In my opinion, they are creating strife with others (who play within the rules) by complaining and shaming. The bombing games belong to everyone.

And...

Yes! you must adapt to your enemy's tactics or die. That is how strategy games work.

*[M]VonHulk wrote: My bread and butter is as an " up the middle Wonk ",

Sorry, Von.

"Wonk" was a bit of a strong word here.

You are not stupid. boring, nor are you unattractive.

But most strongly to your credit, you do not complain about how others play. You strive, study and adapt.

Not to be off topic but Holy Moly I have now while in the last 3 days have figured out everything about DF and Forums best answer to all is as follows: I agree to disagree!! That's all we really can do! Just saying

Khaos King wrote: Not to be off topic but Holy Moly I have now while in the last 3 days have figured out everything about DF and Forums best answer to all is as follows: I agree to disagree!! ...

The other part is to let others do as they want without harassing them, as long as they play within the rules.

That's true McFate I agree with ya but to a point I also agree With just sticking with what the mission is. But yes I do see and know each Individual has his own flying style and who are we to tell them how to fly! I'll just shut up about it cause like my own words say Who am I to tell someone how to fly.!.!

Simply awesome Mr Mcfate......I am so with you on this

I'm sure anybody who has read some of my threads will know i agree 110%, just wanted to drop by and show my support and say thank you for making this thread!

To all the up the middle guys that hate sneakers, take it as a challenge, just because one goes high or wide doesnt mean they cant be taken down. Just yesterday i went wide and got taken down at the hanger, the red said in good fun "was that a long flight over?"......LOL, i could only say yes it was sir and nice save! this was much better than previous name callers...cough...primal...cough...who ive had fun joking with since, but seriously, it was a long flight over there and for nothing, most times if i go up the middle 6+ times and dont get a single bomb off, and i know my blues can hold them back without me, i will go wide, why wouldnt you? and 80% of the time i get two bombs off... If you fail but continue doing the same thing over and over you might need to reevaluate your gameplay. But the 20% when they do get me, its a long wasted trip, and i was impressed at the fun that red had that day at making that trip pointless for me, all in good fun. so please just try to take it as a challenge rather than resort to name calling and drama. that is all

wonk noun \ˈwäŋk, ˈwȯŋk\
: a person who knows a lot about the details of a particular field (such as politics) and often talks a lot about that subject.
Found this in the dictionary, Well I don't feel so bad now, if I had not just changed my name, I might fly as VonWonk. lol

*[M]VonHulk wrote: wonk noun \ˈwäŋk, ˈwȯŋk\
: a person who knows a lot about the details of a particular field (such as politics) and often talks a lot about that subject.
Found this in the dictionary, Well I don't feel so bad now, if I had not just changed my name, I might fly as VonWonk. lol

LMAO!

McWonk!

(Auto correct tried to change it to McCain!)

Great stuff Mcfate!! Cant wait for the day we can chat with our own team and strategize...lol(lots of luck right!)it would be so easy for a developer to add that "team chat" button,hint hint Zup.
I love mixing up the bombing missions!
I look at it this way. Its a WAR game! there are way too many "feelings" here about "fairness"...what war is or was fair?
We are flying soldiers, no remorse no regret,no feelings,carry out your mission objective! What commanding officer cares about odds?...I don't get the unwritten code about "if you outnumber your enemy by two or more then don't sneak! play fair!waaaa"...pay attention then!..whiners..that's lame but I honor it.
Same with camping, aka air superiority. Do it!! if it hurts your feelings counter it! I love being able to carry 2 boxes of kleenex now on the D8! I often cry too...about the shrapnel in my eye!!
My number one "unwritten code" is "It's a war game! check your feelings at the door!"
you're cool Mcfate! I enjoy your topics.

Knight of the Son....=£= Templar

Problem with droppers is they gain a 30 to 40 point speed boost with NO disadvantages to it. Treating carrying a bomb like it's a preference of style is being dishonest, it's not even close to an equal pro/con split vs. the bombless. Sneaking is a tactic, it has pros and cons, "dropping" though is not a tactic or clever as there is no disadvantage to it.
I just don't want to see all games in DF to be the same thing every time I play. But that's the new argument, that turning Bombing missions in to just yet another Dogfight style mission is now called tactics or thinking outside the box. Three out of five DF missions are Dogfight bombless style already. Clever tactics would be ones that use a bomb. The planes are never more balanced then when they have a bomb, so the top and bottom tier planes are better matched.

macfate congratulations! I want to clarify qe fallen 59 aircraft with dv, always flying with bomba.todos felicitaron.ahora me well if I go into a game, and there are 3 drivers not let go my team will do everything possible so that they get it right, it is logical or not? darrax aver if you do not see it plays a Df silly .. by qur le.derribam can not win and I enjoy the feeling sometimes I lose but win others please let everyone enjoy, I play mostly blitz that for they know, but if I drop as often el.caso my pump a tank and I away the base, I must return? Why? 'll help my team to arrive or finish the mision.hulk think if I do what they say, I myself do not ask him to play on my computer, you know that I always carry pump do not understand their position, and me.da it. que.podia never imagined that my thinking, my friend le.consideraba only blind but I see you and kill and kill, ami learn different things.

111th|On_Wings_oF wrote: ... "dropping" though is not a tactic or clever as there is no disadvantage to it.
I just don't want to see all games in DF to be the same thing every time I play. But that's the new argument, that turning Bombing missions in to just yet another Dogfight style mission is now called tactics or thinking outside the box.

I hear what you're saying but the problem that keeps showing up is that not everyone agrees. The chaser/droppers keep coming into games and "messing them up" for those who don't want to drop. People get all mad and do the blame/shame thing. I see on the blacklist thread right now; someone posted a pic of BStranchan calling someone a F**ing P*** for dropping in a game. (You can't find a more established player than that) He is obviously mad as hell. Now what?

If, instead of shaming him with words, BStranchan would drop (maybe he doesn't have to ) and chase the guy out, he could go back to the bombing game. Or if the chaser is not just in for easy kills and does not chicken out...



Here are some tactical possibilities (other than just sneaking) to deal with a red dropper:


If you're in a bombing game and a red chaser starts dropping, your team can possibly counter him with one blue chaser. The funny thing is you don't need to shoot him, just keep him busy while your teammates make a run. Or if all of your team still insists on carrying, spread out so the chaser can only target one of you at a time while the others shoot at him or just focus on a run. If he goes after one of you while you're spread out, that one should drop and evade as long as possible, again keep the chaser busy as long as possible so the others with bombs can finish the run. If none of the blues drop and stay easy targets it makes it easy work for the red chaser to take out all of the blue bombers. Odds are (especially if a blue also drops) that some blues will make in to a good range to get in tanks. If one does you should consider dropping and covering that tank. Tanks often do a lot of damage, especially if they have good cover.

If all of the red team drops, as soon as a blue respawns back at your base... its perfect time for a sneak. Send one with 2 bombs up or around as everyone else is scrapping mid field. One good sneak with two bombs will put the reds on alert. If they have any sense they will start patrolling for more sneaks. This may take their chaser/dropper out of the middle of the field. In fact, some people have posted about how they've managed to draw defenders away by showing up on the maps to the side/ above or behind the enemy base. I try to do this while reds complain about me "camping". If there are no incoming blues, I will do what I can to lead as many reds away as possible. If they choose not to follow me I'll go after them. (Not over their base. That's pointless kill mongering. And it keep the reds in position to defend against blue bombers.) Many times I have managed to drag 2 or 3 dropping defenders out of the middle so incoming blues have a much better chance... There is so much going on that a chaser will not just be in the middle picking off bombers.



Come on! Can't you see? There are many ways to play these games! This is "Meta" gaming. It is where you are constantly trying to anticipate what your enemy is up to, and they are trying to do the same. If everyone opens up to the possibilities it can be a fantasticly strategic game. The alternative is what we have now: it's a game where high ranked, experienced players whine and complain about anyone who doesn't just go straight up the middle, whether ist's another experienced player or a level 6 noob who has just started playing and has almost zero chance of making a successful run straight on.

Basically, I'm saying that if one red dropper can ruin your whole geme experience, don't you think you should try something new? What good does it do to whine?


So, whine and complain, insult and shame, get upset because someone is playing "unfair" according to a game limiting mindset held by people who have been playing for a year or more, which has no "rules" to enforce it? Or step up your game, engage your brain, step outside of the straight and narrow "valley of death" and make a game which engages all types and skill levels of all players?

Checkers... or chess?

Chess...

It is really annoying when u have two bombs and people complain about dropping one, I mean come on, I still have one bomb , going by their selfish rules without breaking,cause I still got a bomb and all, I just can make it to their base faster, and they still complain

What do I do when they complain about me giving them a fair chance? I drop the second and make them wish I had only dropped one....

Anyone notice what it saids to do in this mission?

exact muffler, those are the only valid rules, the rest to earn what you put, any tactic is viable and valid, their actions depend on you to win.

[Void] Silencer wrote:

Anyone notice what it saids to do in this mission?

Hmmm. "Destroy"?

That does not specify bombing, does it. Tanks anyone?

McFate wrote:

[Void] Silencer wrote:

Anyone notice what it saids to do in this mission?

Hmmm. "Destroy"?

That does not specify bombing, does it. Tanks anyone?

oh....look...it also said "team"..... which should mean that multiple people should work together to acheive the a specific goal..............but never saids how it should be done...

10 out of 10 Mc!

If this was real war, this topic would be mute.

yes we must only bomb the hangers. Now that means no shooting at the reds its just a race to the hangers

Please pardon another pertinent repost:

Jacob10000 wrote: I'm not sure wh at unit of measure our altimetes use but 1,000 is in range to be seen. If you aren't watching up high then that is not my fault. As a matter of fact I don't believe that flying at any capable altitude is any form of cheating. Why have the airspace if not allowed to use it?

OMG!!! Could it be???? Another valid tactic????!!!!!

It can be a great way to patrol and keep an eye on the valley of death. Visibility seems to be about1200 +/- . So by flying at 1000 you are able to see from ground level to 2200m. That's high enough to catch many sneaks.

But here is another concept... get ready.....

WARNING: If you don't want to broaden your horizons you should not read any further!

It's called being a "diversion"...... a D. I .V. E. R. S. I. O. N...... not a C .H .E .A .T. !

By flying on the edge of visibility you can "bait" the reds. This can be especially effective if you fly off to the East or West. The reds will see you and often pursue, thus leaving the "Valley" open to your inbound bombers. I've been called a cheat while doing this. LOL!!!! It happened just the other day. I was allied in an even game. My team had been on a run and I got shot down first. I respawned and went East, not out of view mind you, My teammates eventually got shot down and had respawned in a group behind me and were starting another run with the reds still back by their own base. I was way out in front and realized that the reds had just been defending against our tanks, so some of them may have dropped, maybe not? Anyway, as the reds came into view (flying up the middle) I was more than ½ way across the map. I did not engage at first, but waited.... "how many will flow me?".... 1-2-3.... "Hmmm... where is the other?...Oh well..." So 3 of them were pursuing a had come quite a ways from the middle. I was watching them by sliding the view over so I keep on my vector. As soon as they began firing I started jinking and dodging. Then suddenly the blues showed up on the map!

What was going through reds minds? One of them pulled off of me and went back after the blue bombers. That's when I did the unthinkable! I dropped! That's D.R.O.P.P.E.D. not C.H.E.A.T.E.D. Not kill mongering, not stat padding but, playing as a T.E.A.M.

I started turinng and evading , I fired a few at the red who had gone back after the incoming blues but otherwise I did not try to kill the reds. Two blues made it in to bomb. The other got shot down and I think he managed to take out a red sneak.


The reds called us cheats and dishonorable. For what? For going up the side while still in view? For dropping while evading 3-1 ? For not trying to shoot defenders so they would not respawn at their base and be in the perfect place to defend against incoming bombers? Or could it be that they just didn't like being outsmarted?

Bah!

META baby!

Adapt or die!

Well I posted my ideas about this issue on the Misfits thread and I will repeat my thoughts here. I "sneaked" for a profession for many years in real life so why would I not do the same for a game?





Here is photographic proof. Highly classified so don't ask for the source.





I learned the tactic of going around and high when I began playing and depending on the games progress I continue to employ this tactic even though I have been called a cheater and so on. So be it.