Hey guys! Luna here.

So, I've had some nagging questions in the back of my mind about this game, and I finally thought, "I'll just use some old-fashioned brainwork to figure it out."

Now don't worry, the stuff I'll be addressing is Algebra 1 level, the stuff you probably learned (or will learn) in your freshman year. If you don't want anything to do with math or numbers, feel free to completely ignore this thread.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT an expert mathematician, I can make mistakes. Please point them out if you catch any.

First Question: How large is the DF map?

To answer this question, I needed a constant variable, something consistent that I can make comparisons to. So, I decided to use the good 'ol speedometer. Assuming it measures your airspeed in knots, I used it to find the length of the map by timing a flight from one end to another.

Flight time: 3:00 (exactly)

1 knot is approximately 1.15mph, so...

Speed (average): 150 knots/172.5mph

So, if I travel 172.5 miles in one hour (172.5mph), how far do I travel in 3 minutes? I use a simple ratio equation to figure it out, with x as the length of the map.

172.5/60 = x/3

After solving, you find that x = 8.625

So, the Dogfight map is 8.625 miles long from the southernmost point to the northernmost point. If you assume that the map is a square, the case can be the same for east to west. Also, it means the map is 74.4 square miles, 3.5 times larger than Manhattan.

Question 2: How far apart are the North and South bases?

Using the same method, I found it took 112 seconds to fly from one base to another with an average speed of 150kn/172.5mph. Again, I put together an equation: (there are 3600 seconds in an hour)

172.5/3600 = x/112

x = 5.36

So, the bases are approximately 5.36 miles apart from each other.

Question 3: How accurate is the altimeter?

For the last two experiments, the constant was the speedometer. That's assuming that the airspeed is 100% ACCURATE. So, how accurate is its cousin on the other side, the altimeter? Let's assume it measures your altitude in feet.

This one was a bit tricky. To solve this, I used the same concept of finding distance using speed, but this time, I was falling.

At 500ft, falling at the terminal velocity of 180 knots/207mph, it took me 10.7 seconds to meet my unfortunate end.

So, 207mph ≈ 303 feet per second. After 10.7 seconds of falling, I should have fell 3242.1 feet. But, the altimeter says I fell 500 feet. SOMETHING IS WRONG.

So, if the speedometer is absolutely correct, that means the alimeter is absolutely incorrect. So, think of each unit on the altimeter (1, 2, 3...) to actually be around 650 feet increments.

But what if the altimeter is correct, and the speedometer is actually the wrong one?

In that case, to travel 500ft in 10.7 seconds, I should have been falling at a speed of 46.7fps, or 31.8mph, or at a speed of 27.7 knots.

MOM must have been messing with my air pressure gauge or something. Either that, or Zuperman's Laws of Physics are out of this world.

Knowing this information, who wants to tell me how high the peak of Mt. Duckwing really is?

.......

If anyone else has any conundrums they've solved or would like to solve, share 'em here. Oh, and bring a calculator.

-Luna

Leave it to you, Luna! This is typically brilliant and actually useful info. We spend more than enough time inside that confined area of terrain, it's nice to know how many miles we've logged. Not that I have any intention of making such calculations. If I knew the distance I've "flown" in Dogfight I'd have to commit suicide by CAKE strangulation.

More than anything else, it's lovely to have you back on the forum and in the game! You've been missed.

--w--

I remember zuperman posting somewere that the altimeter is in metres.

Correct gizmo, its all metric, much easier

1) as mentioned above, all measurements are in si system

2) the distance between north base nd the south base is clearly mentioned as 4 km in practice mission 2.

3) the game doesnt follow some laws of motion like the plane or the bomb doesnt accelerate while falling down.

4) the bomb should travel along the direction in which the plan was travelling just before the bomb was dropped.

For example let us assume a senario where the plane is travelling at 72 kmph. At a height of 100 m.

After the bomb is dropped neglecting air resistance and boyant forces, it will reach the ground after 2gh^1/2 sec. In this case, 6 sec approx.

The distance travelled by the bomb in 6 sec neglecting air resistance will be = ut = 20x6 = whopping 120 meters. !!
( As 72 kmph is equal to 20 metera per sec. ).

Hence the bomb must fall 120 meters away from the target if released just above the target !

But in the game it falls on the same position at which it was dropped.

Thats a huge fault in the game !
(must be for ease of play)

and luna, i dont need a calculator lol !

Why is it that most of the world uses the metric system but Americans still use imperial measurements. So much easier to divide by 100, 1000 etc than quarters of inches etc. strange ?

I never could get the hang of the metric system, I LIKE OUR SYSTEM BETTER.

DOWN WITH METRIC.

ALSO WILL KNOWING THE ABOVE INFORMATION HELP ME BOMB MORE ACCURATELY AND BOMB MORE HANGERS?

Inquiring minds want to know.

@davy
probably no.
Good question though.

@heff.
I agree
the whole world uses SI system but some countries like usa dont.

THATS INSANE ! Given that si system was created for ease of communication.

No offence, non si system using country's residents.
Lol [ and yes i agree that my last sentence is complicated. ].

Luna(tic),

Those are fine methods, especially establishing terminal velocity downward. It's true, Z did say that altitude is measured in meters, but that one has never calculated out well for me. Now I feel validated!

I have critiques, and I don't feel bad about voicing them because they come right out of the School of Luna(cy). The first is cultural. In an analysis of a game made by a company from anywhere but the USA, always always always assume metric. Doing otherwise will douse your credibility like shaking hands with your left hand in Malaysia or crossing your leg with your shoe up in Yemen (I did the first in Malaysia; haven't managed to be in Yemen for the second).

The other critique is, unfortunately (sigh), about Spelling. The only condition under which knots would be spelled "knotts" is when referring to Don Knotts. Granted, he was a famous mathematician and physicist himself, so the confusion is completely understandable. My favorite readings of Dr. Knotts include his Barney Papers. Absolutely brilliant.

I issue to you an additional challenge: how long are the newly discovered Mantz tunnels, and how deep do they go?

Best regards,
Manfred

The DOGFIGHT UNDERGROUND TUNNELS are exactly the same length from one end to the other as they are from the other end to the beginning.
As far a depth, they go all the way to the bottom if measured from the top and all the way to the top if measured from the bottom.
Hope this helps.

Miss you MISS LUNA!

This is all very confusing ,can someone tell me what the measurement are in country miles

More math I'm interested in; How many enemies do you have to take down in a bomb the base mission? Assuming you are facing four red pilots, the mission just started, and you are alone as your comrades are spawning in behind you (typical linear scenario).

The field is 4km long between bases, and the sight/engagement range is about 1km, based on how high above a target the altimeter reads before that target disappears and also on an estimation of how far out you pick up a target in relation to the base to base distance. Assuming aircraft of equal speed, bomb laden. If you destroyed the first target at half the seen range, as is typical, you would have picked up the initial target after traveling 1500 meters (each aircraft traveled 1500 meters, with a 1000 being the sight range), destroyed it at 2000 meters (traveled 500 more meters toward the enemy base while firing). Based on the spawn/respawn rate, I would assume the spacing between aircraft to be 250 meters, so in the first wave you would see the next target as you are engaging the first, then destroy it in turn. Again assuming a linear approach fight in direct line, you would destroy another three targets at 1750, 1500 and 1250 to the red base. The first target would have respawned and now traveled 750 meters, and be visible, as will each successor respawned target, so another kill at 1000, 750, 500, 250 and one on the runway as you reach for the bomb button.

Nine kills, three dished out to the first in line, two to to each successive aircraft.

Longrifle wrote: More math I'm interested in; How many enemies do you have to take down in a bomb the base mission? Assuming you are facing four red pilots, the mission just started, and you are alone as your comrades are spawning in behind you (typical linear scenario).

The field is 4km long between bases, and the sight/engagement range is about 1km, based on how high above a target the altimeter reads before that target disappears and also on an estimation of how far out you pick up a target in relation to the base to base distance. Assuming aircraft of equal speed, bomb laden. If you destroyed the first target at half the seen range, as is typical, you would have picked up the initial target after traveling 1500 meters (each aircraft traveled 1500 meters, with a 1000 being the sight range), destroyed it at 2000 meters (traveled 500 more meters toward the enemy base while firing). Based on the spawn/respawn rate, I would assume the spacing between aircraft to be 250 meters, so in the first wave you would see the next target as you are engaging the first, then destroy it in turn. Again assuming a linear approach fight in direct line, you would destroy another three targets at 1750, 1500 and 1250 to the red base. The first target would have respawned and now traveled 750 meters, and be visible, as will each successor respawned target, so another kill at 1000, 750, 500, 250 and one on the runway as you reach for the bomb button.

Nine kills, three dished out to the first in line, two to to each successive aircraft.

This is all getting very confusing. In case it helps, I do know that it takes 3 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.

Ah! You're absolutely right, Manfred. Knots. Gah.

And yes, I will have to break the habit of using US Customary. I agree, the metric system makes a whole much more sense.

Anyways, even if the altimeter is in meters, it's still a bit off. Like I said, to fall at a speed of 180 knots for 10.7 seconds, I should have fallen around 3242 feet, OR 988 meters. Not nearly close to the supposed 500 meters, yes?

But yes, the laws of physics do not properly apply to the DF universe. Really interesting take on the absence of bomb inertia, Atharv. Dropping those things would be a lot less simple it applied, huh?

@Longrifle,

Wow, I never would have thought of that scenario. Nice job! Though I have to say, I'd be lucky to survive the first two opponents. Nine in a row is way out of my league!

This is all way over my head
Somewhere along the lines i remeber Z saying airspeed was in km/h not knots.

Km/h? Well, that puts all of my calculations to shame! I'll take that into account and re-do this.

Luna6 wrote: Hey guys! Luna here.

So, I've had some nagging questions in the back of my mind about this game, and I finally thought, "I'll just use some old-fashioned brainwork to figure it out."

Now don't worry, the stuff I'll be addressing is Algebra 1 level, the stuff you probably learned (or will learn) in your freshman year. If you don't want anything to do with math or numbers, feel free to completely ignore this thread.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT an expert mathematician, I can make mistakes. Please point them out if you catch any.

First Question: How large is the DF map?

To answer this question, I needed a constant variable, something consistent that I can make comparisons to. So, I decided to use the good 'ol speedometer. Assuming it measures your airspeed in knots, I used it to find the length of the map by timing a flight from one end to another.

Flight time: 3:00 (exactly)

1 knot is approximately 1.15mph, so...

Speed (average): 150 knots/172.5mph

So, if I travel 172.5 miles in one hour (172.5mph), how far do I travel in 3 minutes? I use a simple ratio equation to figure it out, with x as the length of the map.

172.5/60 = x/3

After solving, you find that x = 8.625

So, the Dogfight map is 8.625 miles long from the southernmost point to the northernmost point. If you assume that the map is a square, the case can be the same for east to west. Also, it means the map is 74.4 square miles, 3.5 times larger than Manhattan.

Question 2: How far apart are the North and South bases?

Using the same method, I found it took 112 seconds to fly from one base to another with an average speed of 150kn/172.5mph. Again, I put together an equation: (there are 3600 seconds in an hour)

172.5/3600 = x/112

x = 5.36

So, the bases are approximately 5.36 miles apart from each other.

Question 3: How accurate is the altimeter?

For the last two experiments, the constant was the speedometer. That's assuming that the airspeed is 100% ACCURATE. So, how accurate is its cousin on the other side, the altimeter? Let's assume it measures your altitude in feet.

This one was a bit tricky. To solve this, I used the same concept of finding distance using speed, but this time, I was falling.

At 500ft, falling at the terminal velocity of 180 knots/207mph, it took me 10.7 seconds to meet my unfortunate end.

So, 207mph ≈ 303 feet per second. After 10.7 seconds of falling, I should have fell 3242.1 feet. But, the altimeter says I fell 500 feet. SOMETHING IS WRONG.

So, if the speedometer is absolutely correct, that means the alimeter is absolutely incorrect. So, think of each unit on the altimeter (1, 2, 3...) to actually be around 650 feet increments.

But what if the altimeter is correct, and the speedometer is actually the wrong one?

In that case, to travel 500ft in 10.7 seconds, I should have been falling at a speed of 46.7fps, or 31.8mph, or at a speed of 27.7 knots.

MOM must have been messing with my air pressure gauge or something. Either that, or Zuperman's Laws of Physics are out of this world.

Knowing this information, who wants to tell me how high the peak of Mt. Duckwing really is?

.......

If anyone else has any conundrums they've solved or would like to solve, share 'em here. Oh, and bring a calculator.

-Luna

This is about to make my brain explode. I have a simpler problem. Allied+Nieuport 17=You going down in a ball of flame.

Wait but One Don Knotts = 1 km/hr.
Oh and don't forget to subtract out the length of the plane from your altitude measurement

I'm going to have to figure out a way to sight level from the top of Mt. Duckwing. This might take another person. Or... maybe time the terminal velocity dive between a known indicated altitude and the splat into the top of the mountain, and do the same into the lake, to get the difference. THERE!

Manfred

manny...

you forgot that Zuperman is getting advertising dollars from the secret underground passage.....

there is the "Knotts" Berry farm in the underground passage that is fed from the tributary source from Duckwing Mtn...

so.....1 "Knotts" Berry Farm = all the fruit needed for jam at the Jolly Roger..

Manfred wrote: Wait but One Don Knotts = 1 km/hr.
Oh and don't forget to subtract out the length of the plane from your altitude measurement

I'm going to have to figure out a way to sight level from the top of Mt. Duckwing. This might take another person. Or... maybe time the terminal velocity dive between a known indicated altitude and the splat into the top of the mountain, and do the same into the lake, to get the difference. THERE!

Manfred

That'll work! Brilliant!

But, isn't one knott knot equal to around 1.8 km/h?

Manfred wrote: Wait but One Don Knotts = 1 km/hr.

EDIT by Paul:
Let MR. KNOTTS speak for himself...as he describes last night's game of the World's Series!!

Remove $$ to use. Use $$ to post your best "duplicate impression".

Winner gets a prize !

Manfred

if you go further in "them thar hills" in the underground tunnel...you will see the "Knotts" Berry Farm Amusement park.....that is why some of the pilots land on the surface in the middle of the field between bases and dont take off. I call it the "pluribus secret passageway"....wherever he lands is where the secret passageway to the Knottts Berry Farm Amusement Park is...

Lets all give thanks to Pluribus and all who land in the middle of the game without taking off....they are spending hard earned dollars at the amusement park that contribute to Knotts Berry Farm so they can afford the advertising and rental charge in the secret passageway by our beloved Zuperman...

Also what is great...is the Jolly Roger gets its jam free courtesy of Zuperman....and its afforded by those Knotts Berry Farm advertising dollars as well...hahahahahaha

Fly in the ointment on the altimeter scenarios.... Sorry. The altimeter gives a ready (in the game) of altitude above the ground you are currently flying over. It is not based on a constant like sea (or lake, in this case) level. That's not going to make measuring the mountain easy. As a tree top flyer myself, I prefer the current system.

On units of measure Zup has said its km/h and meters.

This is the amusement park that Pluribus spends his time in while parked in between the bases in the middle of the field in game...Its located where the underground passage takes you...right next to Knotts Berry Farm:

ParrotHead wrote: Fly in the ointment on the altimeter scenarios.... Sorry. The altimeter gives a ready (in the game) of altitude above the ground you are currently flying over. It is not based on a constant like sea (or lake, in this case) level. That's not going to make measuring the mountain easy. As a tree top flyer myself, I prefer the current system.

On units of measure Zup has said its km/h and meters.

Yepper, that's why it takes two timed vertical kamikazee flights: one into the mountain peak, and one into the lake. I suppose if we want to know the relief of Mt. Ducking from the surrounding flats, then one more splat flight into the north airport runway would be in order.

Is there any common ground, after all the terrain is different between android and iOS users.

Replying from a previous post:

1) as mentioned above, all measurements are in si system
Correct. I use meters and kilometers. Some people in US can't understand the system (to the amazement of the other countries since it's so easy!). But that's a dif subject. Use all SI system for all calculations since it's not only meters used on Dogfight for physics.

2) the distance between north base nd the south base is clearly mentioned as 4 km in practice mission 2.
hmm i wrote that as an approximation. The exact distance is known, but if i disclose it, this thread wouldn't be as much fun


3) the game doesnt follow some laws of motion like the plane or the bomb doesnt accelerate while falling down.
wrong. The game has lot of physics incorporated. The bomb and airplane do accelerate while falling, at the acceleration speed of gravity 9.81 m/s2 and it is based in 3 things: first, weight of the object, two, air resistance and third, air density at height. So... as you saw on mr felix jump from the edge of space... the higher you are, the less air density which means the resistance is lower and you fall way faster. The closer you get to land, air density is higher and resistance too, meaning you fall slower. There is a point where you cannot fall faster because the air is stopping you, that's called the maximum speed or terminal speed.

Yes, that's all implemented on that little phone of yours

as a note, it used to be way more realistic on the first versions of Dogfight but people complained that physics were wrong and the game sucked. So I had to change it to a more fake system that adjust to how most similators work = not that realistic. To give you an example, when you turn left on a real airplane, the airplane slides through air until it rotates. So if you turn left, your plane may not actually turn left for at least 100 meters. That's how Dogfight used to be too. But people are used to turning left and seeing it turn left, almost like a train on rails, so they complained. I had to change it to something in between, faking the air density to be much higher so that the airplane "sticks" to the air and turns way faster than a real plane.

4) the bomb should travel along the direction in which the plan was travelling just before the bomb was dropped.
it does. It's called inertia. If you drop the bomb at high speed right on top of a point you will see it going to your same direction for a while until air resistance slows it to only vertical (gravitational force).


When I wrote Dogfight I had to read ton of stuff about aerodynamics. Things like this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-induced_drag
In Dogfight, wings have a contact surface (each wing, even the body of the plane), they also have angles of attack, drag, lift, and so on. Even the propeller follows a formula to calculate at what speed it is rotating and what trust it provides on air. The higher it goes, since the air is less dense, it pushes less = propeller can't generate enough trust, and the airplane stalls. That's why there is a ceiling on the game, like any real propeller airplane, they can't go above to a point where the air is not dense enough.

You can calculate all that if you feel inclined

if luna's readings are correct then i found that the exact distance between the north and south bases is 4666.6667 meters. !

Which is approximately equal to the distance mentioned in second practice mission which is 4 km.
(its a heck of an approximation !) lol


and zup.
I dont think air drag will reduce its velocity by that much.

Even if it does, then the deceleration is too high.