No dix not at all ill work my up regardless.im just looking at df is suffering and we all need to change it.im not here to think about myself.i love df how about you.

I started this thread to try and stop the constant crashing between planes..
Id rather zup make more money for better servers and stuff. Can you understand it now thats about as much as i can dumb it down

Really the reason I think we don't keep adding to the player's base with new paying players is that with noobs not on a beginner's server that pretty much makes all other arguments like bullet drop secondary.. they get slaughtered before they get hooked!

Just my 2¢

I like bullet drop myself. It's the scopes that are off on the new tanks that aggrevate me.

I totally agree Stars & Bars!!

ZebraUp wrote: Really the reason I think we don't keep adding to the player's base with new paying players is that with noobs not on a beginner's server that pretty much makes all other arguments like bullet drop secondary.. they get slaughtered before they get hooked!

Just my 2¢

Now you rember what happend the last time we had noob servers.they still got slaughtered wh3n they moved up.they just got more mouthy.
Now one big problem is constant camping of noobs.
BUT you will rember this zebra was it not hard enough to take off as a noob and shooting straight getting a kill..now add drop to that and them trying to figure any range shooting its really got to suck for noobs.oh.
Now you and i dont mind drop I HATE THE CONSTANT CRASHES..only because we are freaking oldtimers at this.
I dont know what zup makes on the game.but im sure hed like to make more.
Maybe he can flatten out the drop a bit so we dont have to get that close anymore.
NOTICE.i am not saying to get rid of it just tweak it a bit
Now a lot of times i have a side shot android.(dont know about others).at quarter range i have to aim so far ahead.im just as likely to shoot down a team mate
The drop at even close range is steep.ive aimed say 100yards apart dead center or top wing and watched my rounds fall short.again lag does not help.
So if zup could flatten or extend range before drop happens maybe just maybe.WE WOULD STOP CRASHING INTO EACHOTHER
sorry i raised my keybord

Doggy Dix wrote:

You do not have permissions to access this page.

high jacking the tread... haha...

now you self high jacked your tread moving focus from bullet drop to craching each other...
btw bullet drop is not nearby the same in ww1 as in ww2...
and as a noob there no matter if theres a bulletdrop or not... you haven the experiennce of bouth as a senior df gamer have...

watta fk is the matter with ppl...WHY NOT just play the game as it is and learn how to handle it... INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CHANGE IT ALL THE TIME...and be the cause of other problems that nobody seen coming... thats the major issue i Think...

Well you see dix the game was changed on us.zup even gave us a vote once about drop.no one wanted it.just stop and think why so mqny people left df.

My friend joey left the game. Not because of bullet drop but because he was killed by a truck while jaywalking

EDITED: Ah... I haven't played enough recently to have a well-informed opinion.

Once the bullit drop was introduced it leveled the playing field as we all had to learn a new set of skills, i prefer the game be as true to physics as possible, being an air combat simulator. Is it a lag fest? Yup. Does it glitch? Yup.
But it is still fun. There are times when my heart races in anticipation. That is fun and good for the ticker.
I like the idea of limiting fuel. I was told by a real pilot that in real war nobody hung around the objective to rage kill or pad kdr's due to flak and fuel issues.
Just the opinion of a mediocre pilot.

Something occurs on this Earth, It's called gravity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!unless we are playing in outer space.

Uhh... Gravity is in outer space too. Laser drop?

I stand corrected, was not talking about lasers, bullet will travel in a straight line, same speed forever in space till it hits an obstacle or is attracted by a body large enough to have an gravitational pull.

darraxx wrote:

Doggy Dix wrote:

You do not have permissions to access this page.

high jacking the tread... haha...

now you self high jacked your tread moving focus from bullet drop to craching each other...
btw bullet drop is not nearby the same in ww1 as in ww2...
and as a noob there no matter if theres a bulletdrop or not... you haven the experiennce of bouth as a senior df gamer have...

watta fk is the matter with ppl...WHY NOT just play the game as it is and learn how to handle it... INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CHANGE IT ALL THE TIME...and be the cause of other problems that nobody seen coming... thats the major issue i Think...

Well you see dix the game was changed on us.zup even gave us a vote once about drop.no one wanted it.just stop and think why so mqny people left df.

Obviously you dont ( cant read).whats posted .my original post is about the planes crashing .due to bullet drop
Please read or have someone read it to you.
I did not say to get rid of it just tweak it a bit so we dont have so many crashes when going head to head and get close together
If it helps dix i will type slower just so you can keep up..
Next time try reading the original post before you pop off.

I am an android tablet, tilt player, and I LOVE bullet drop! I feel like I stand out! If I go on a noob server, I can get a 6-7:1 KDR. When I play WW2, I might get a 1.5:1 KDR or sometimes negative. That's what happens when you fight people of similar skill level. I feel like I have adjusted pretty good to distance shooting. I have plenty of success at the long shot. It takes a little longer for both to get zeroed on. This definitely swings the advantage to 2 or more v. 1. Those games are harder now, and they should be. Some days, I have great wifi and clean up, some days not so much. I like the new format. 4 years and kicking in this little game!

darraxx wrote:

ZebraUp wrote: Really the reason I think we don't keep adding to the player's base with new paying players is that with noobs not on a beginner's server that pretty much makes all other arguments like bullet drop secondary.. they get slaughtered before they get hooked!

Just my 2¢

Now you rember what happend the last time we had noob servers.they still got slaughtered wh3n they moved up.they just got more mouthy.
Now one big problem is constant camping of noobs.
BUT you will rember this zebra was it not hard enough to take off as a noob and shooting straight getting a kill..now add drop to that and them trying to figure any range shooting its really got to suck for noobs.oh.
Now you and i dont mind drop I HATE THE CONSTANT CRASHES..only because we are freaking oldtimers at this.
I dont know what zup makes on the game.but im sure hed like to make more.
Maybe he can flatten out the drop a bit so we dont have to get that close anymore.
NOTICE.i am not saying to get rid of it just tweak it a bit
Now a lot of times i have a side shot android.(dont know about others).at quarter range i have to aim so far ahead.im just as likely to shoot down a team mate
The drop at even close range is steep.ive aimed say 100yards apart dead center or top wing and watched my rounds fall short.again lag does not help.
So if zup could flatten or extend range before drop happens maybe just maybe.WE WOULD STOP CRASHING INTO EACHOTHER
sorry i raised my keybord

Many newbs adjust quickly, I can go range all day in noob planes rather than higher tiers.
Good point zeb, make it 4c. =)

Daraxx,
If you intended to talk only about the issue of head on crashes you should have chosen a different title for your thread... isn't "Bullet drop let's talk" a bit misleading? Your post doesn't get into crashes until the third sentence. If you "came back for the people and not the bs" you might not want to spread so much bs.

As far as zup's vote on bullet drop goes, more votes were for change. (Unlesss you count the cheating done by second accounts). I can understand how wishful thinking and misunderstanding could support your position but the facts are different. The vote had 3 choices. One was for no change, one was for ballistic drop, the other was for shorter range (if I remember correctly) Wishful thinking and cheating said it should have stayed the same but more votes were for change, albeit there was some split over what the change should have been. It would have been better if the vote only had 2 choices but that's Df history.

Remember that regardless of how many people loved the original df it was not a financial success nor was it ever what Zup invisioned as the finished product. Trying to say that changing it back to how it used to be will somehow make it more successful is a bit silly don't you think?

I did not say to change it back .but if the drop wasnt so dramatic there would be a bit more space between 2 planes closing fast and maybe just maybe the surviving pilot wont crash into a dead plane on a constant basis.

I simply wondered if zup could lessen the drop so 2 pilots might be able t9 have a close head on fight and not both die

And please forgive me oh great and wise mcfate that i did not place the part about planes crashing where you wanted.next time i shall consult you first.before speaking my own opinion

If people read it first and not jumped up and down saying i wanted the drop taken out.maybe this thread would have gone somewhere.instead it has become a bunch of bs.
So i will wait for your next thread and tell you what i dont like about how you wrote........NOT.

Oops, right you are. You did not ask to change it back to how it was. My mistake. Other than you going off the rails a bit to insult Dix this was a pretty good thread.

I think the main issue with the head on crashes is that "old timers" are used to being able to kill the reds from so far off that it was not such a big issue. BTW, In case you hadn't noticed: if you don't swerve while "playing chicken" you stand a good chance of dying.

WWI preferred air to air tactic was to sneak up from a “blind spot” usually from behind and often from below the target, and open fire. Experienced pursuit pilots often closed to 15 meters, but always to 50 meters or less, before opening fire on their unsuspecting victims.¹

As has been pointed out earlier, there was no radar during WWI and unless you’re flying around in a JU88 night fighter, you won’t have one mounted on your plane in WWII either. Air-to-air combat required visually detecting the target, and the probability of that happening past 2-3nm (3.7-5.5km) is pretty low.² “The region surrounding an aircraft where a pilot can reliably expect to detect approaching enemy aircraft extends to about 1.5 to 2.5 nm.”³ “By the middle of World War II, engagement often took place at 470km per hour [292mph] at 200m [656ft] and lead distances of up to 30m [98ft].”⁴

They give a lead figure here because they’re talking about sneak attack and turn fighting distances; the lion’s share of combat pilots have traditionally avoided playing chicken; it’s one of the best ways to get killed, especially in a mid-air collision.

I share all that useless (because it falls on deaf ears) information to challenge the suggestion that Zup has somehow caused the “whimpafcation” of this game, and made it “more arcade style than anything else” by adding bullet drop.

Endlessly flying straight down the valley of death like you’re on rails to either kill or be killed by laser shots that can cross well over the effective range of the represented weapons seems pretty arcade like to me. Putting some actual terrain hazards (trees, clouds) and quasi-realistic ballistics into play, thereby requiring pilots to develop their skills or die trying, is a move toward de-whimpafication.

Calling for the removal of those improvements, suggesting a seasoned, exceptional pilot has lost their skills and pride because they’re holding fire until they get close; I see no glory in that. Do you know what they call it when the devs dumb down a game’s capabilities to appease players who don’t want to work the learning curve? That’s known as "nerfing" a game. If the only way I can stand out is to play the nerfed version of the game, I’ll pass. As old a dog as I am, I’d still rather put in the work, adapt and overcome. The only problem I see with game mechanics is that the lag has to go.

________________________________________
¹ John Stillion, “Trends in Air-to-Air Combat Implications for Future Air Superiority” (Washington, DC: Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, 2015) 4, available at issuu.com/csbaonline/docs/csba6110_air_to_air_report.
^{2, 3} Ibid., 10.
⁴ Ibid., 4.

darraxx wrote: And thats the whole point cannon.why should we be average.why cant we stand out.the only ones i see that want drop are pc players that already have an advantage to start with.maybe we should just let pc players have the game.i came back for the people not the bs.this game was originally made for android.but zup listens to only a few pc players they s3em to get everything they want i dont plant my lips for anyone .

I think this is a great Topic Mad Rabbit. I also think the game needs its heroes, or the feared ruthless demons. I agree that there should be a very small group of those elite of the elite . A handful of pilots you would love to call a cheat, but you cant because deep down inside you no that they are honestly, truly, painfully just that much better then every one else. Those legends like Davy shoot a flea of a flys ass Crockett, Triple tickle a cricketts antenna with lead at a mile out Taps, And Ace Tougher Then your Squads best that have no breasts .

I dont no if Bullet drop can still be kept apart of the game or not. But one thing to remember is this. Elite is still in its infancy . I was not around for the beginning of DF1. We would need Crockett to fill us in with a history lesson.How long in the Original did it take these great pilots to achieve there overwhelming superior KDR . Are we jumping the gun in Elite ? These are Questions that I am posting to the community. I truly believe we need those players.

On Zups Defence , I strongly believe he has hd no intention of mak8n the game full of average pilots. He is much to knowledgeable about the two Wars and What top Ace pilots meant to the real War community. I Think Zup is actually trying to set the game up where actually it will maybe only produce maybe three pilots of this calibre. The Tip three Morafs. I'm not sure the game is yet doing this, But it would be interesting to see what is Strats, CC riders, and Bic/Lupo average # of kills per game. Are these guys consistently gettiing between 30 to 70 kills per match on the low side. And getting 50 to 100 kills on the high side.l As well Darrax your a really good player and I hate to see you getting so wound up over these things. Relax my friend . Keep the game fun.

[NLR] McFate wrote: Oops, right you are. You did not ask to change it back to how it was. My mistake. Other than you going off the rails a bit to insult Dix this was a pretty good thread.

I think the main issue with the head on crashes is that "old timers" are used to being able to kill the reds from so far off that it was not such a big issue. BTW, In case you hadn't noticed: if you don't swerve while "playing chicken" you stand a good chance of dying.

I actually think lag plays a part in the frequent crashes as well. How many times have you hit a player the required 4 times, only to have him continue flying and shooting? I can imagine it is the same from the other perspective, and you keep flying towards the red longer than actually necessary.

Another thought is to adapt to the change, and peel off prior to the crash and/or kill. I cannot tell you how many times a red has flown past after being shot by me 3 times. Likely I have a team mate not too far behind who will handle the clean up duties, or I will have to turn back and finish what I started, depending on the current situation. Unless the red is on top of your base or carrier peeling off and avoiding the collision is my preferred method. If I lose that kill, so what? The red is one shot from dead anyway or at least wounded.... somebody will finish the job, right?

Dailey, your posts are always interesting and informative. I have often wondered what the game would be like without radar, where you would have to be close enough to visually identify your enemy before you shoot at all. A game where you could use the clouds and sun to your advantage, and planes had blind spots, forcing you to look around. Probably be too difficult for most, but to me the idea is fascinating.

I don't get this line of reasoning. "Back when the bullets were like lasers, I was a real badass. Now that there's a ballistic drop it's become harder and I'm not as much of a badass. The bullet drop has removed skill from the game."

The drop has ADDED skill to the game. I like it. I also like the clouds. I'll admit that I was feeling pretty good with myself in the original DF. I was getting to the point where I could drop most people at a steady rate. To knock 3-5 people down in a row was pretty common place. Now, if I knock 3 people down in a row in Elite, it's a freakin rush!

Adapt, overcome, succeed. It's quite simple.

Viper10{WP} wrote: . . . I have often wondered what the game would be like without radar, where you would have to be close enough to visually identify your enemy before you shoot at all. A game where you could use the clouds and sun to your advantage, and planes had blind spots, forcing you to look around. Probably be too difficult for most, but to me the idea is fascinating.

I recently read an interesting paper a Lt. Col. Patrick Higby, USAF wrote back in 2005, called "Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat."¹ There's a lot to chew on there, but one of his more interesting revelations was that "the pursuit of costly BVR capabilities during the Cold War was not justified by actual BVR performance."

He also points out that the weakest technological link has been IFF (Identify Friend or Foe), it is in fact still not considered reliable today, and that due to a justifiable fear of losses due to "fratricide", led to extreme constraints on the employment of BVR air-to-air ordinance. During the cold war, there were only eight conflicts where air-to-air missiles were used, and only four of these conflicts saw any (reliably documented) use of radar-guided missiles designed to achieve BVR kills. Despite a significant investment in BVR capability, only 14% of air-to-air kills were made with BVR missiles, and 95% of those kills were initiated and scored within visual range. Lt. Col. Higby goes on to point out that even when the IFF shortfalls were overcome and BVR shots were taken, only 4 of 61 were successful. That’s a “probability of kill” or PK of only 6.6%! Only 4 BVR kills were scored during the entire cold war!

BVR kills improved during the Gulf War, but data is inconsistent due to vague language in GWAPS (Gulf War Air Power Study) documentation (i.e. “kills involved BVR shots” doesn’t mean the BVR shot was the one that got the kill) . The main factors allowing for an improvement in BVR shots were consistent AWACS support, the persistent and ridiculously lopsided air superiority Coalition pilots enjoyed, and the inferior equipment and training of their Iraqi counterparts (they typically didn’t take any evasive action once radar lock occurred).

The short version: even into the modern era, the vast majority of air-to-air kills are made up close and personal, within visual range . . . they call that a Dogfight. That was certainly the case from WWI thru the Korean War. If a game touting itself to be “a World War I and World War II massive combat airplane simulator” wants to offer a smidgen of justification for that title, it can (and should) be expected to offer at least a modicum of deference to historical evidence, rather than being nerfed into arcadesque, monotonously repetitive gameplay.
________________________________________
¹ Lt Col Patrick Higby, USAF, "Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat," Air War College (AWC) Electives Program Seminar 7 : Air Power Theory, Doctrine, and Strategy: 1945-Present, 2005, available at pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf.

I still get some good runs going shooting people down..just kinda dont like having 12 deaths and 9 are from chashing.

Yes i try to turn away from head on but the slow reaction of tilt with the added speeds on planes is just equaling crashes.and with a lot of realy good pilots..

So would it be so bad if zup was to tweqk the drop a bit so maybe we can get a kill a just a smaller bit of range.im NOT saying i wqnt to shoot a pixel at the red base from my base .

Its not for the long range shooting this is for close rqnge so there wont be so mqny crashes going.it sucks when you have a run going .your getting close and there is the inevitable head on you shoot him down you die in a crash.
Same as defending you get up you fire you shoot him and you die beacuse you crashed..
Wouldn't it be nice to not have so many crashes in a game.
I dont mind getting shoot down hey thats what the game is about.it just sucks to die in a crash.

S. E. Dailey wrote:

Viper10{WP} wrote: . . . I have often wondered what the game would be like without radar, where you would have to be close enough to visually identify your enemy before you shoot at all. A game where you could use the clouds and sun to your advantage, and planes had blind spots, forcing you to look around. Probably be too difficult for most, but to me the idea is fascinating.

I recently read an interesting paper a Lt. Col. Patrick Higby, USAF wrote back in 2005, called "Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat."¹ There's a lot to chew on there, but one of his more interesting revelations was that "the pursuit of costly BVR capabilities during the Cold War was not justified by actual BVR performance."

He also points out that the weakest technological link has been IFF (Identify Friend or Foe), it is in fact still not considered reliable today, and that due to a justifiable fear of losses due to "fratricide", led to extreme constraints on the employment of BVR air-to-air ordinance. During the cold war, there were only eight conflicts where air-to-air missiles were used, and only four of these conflicts saw any reliably documented) use of radar-guided missiles designed to achieve BVR kills. Despite a significant investment in BVR capability, only 14% of air-to-air kills were made with BVR missiles, and 95% of those kills were initiated and scored within visual range. Lt. Col. Higby goes on to point out that even when the IFF shortfalls were overcome and BVR shots were taken, only 4 of 61 were successful. That’s a “probability of kill” or PK of only 6.6%! Only 4 BVR kills were scored during the entire cold war!

BVR kills improved during the Gulf War, but data is inconsistent due to vague language in GWAPS (Gulf War Air Power Study) documentation (i.e. “kills involved BVR shots” doesn’t mean the BVR shot was what the one that got the kill) . The main factors allowing for an improvement in BVR shots were consistent AWACS support, the persistent and ridiculously lopsided air superiority Coalition pilots enjoyed, and the inferior equipment and training of their Iraqi counterparts (they typically didn’t take any evasive action once radar lock occurred).

The short version: even into the modern era, the vast majority of air-to-air kills are made up close and personal, within visual range . . . they call that a Dogfight. That was certainly the case from WWI thru the Korean War. If a game touting itself to be “a World War I and World War II massive combat airplane simulator” wants to offer a smidgen of justification for that title, it can (and should) be expected to offer at least a modicum of deference to historical evidence, rather than being nerfed into arcadesque, monotonously repetitive gameplay.
________________________________________
¹ Lt Col Patrick Higby, USAF, "Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat," Air War College (AWC) Electives Program Seminar 7 : Air Power Theory, Doctrine, and Strategy: 1945-Present, 2005, available at pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf.

Really.

darraxx wrote: I still get some good runs going shooting people down..just kinda dont like having 12 deaths and 9 are from chashing.

Before I quit playing this game, I rarely had crashes with the other planes, usually crashes were with the trees.

I don't know if lag is the issue (seems to be a big issue nowadays) but you can develop the skill of long distance shooting with the bullet drop. I have helped many learn where to aim by allowing them to shoot me as we were approaching each other, then giving them feed back (you were a low that time, you were high, etc.)

{GI} E*A*G*L*E wrote:

darraxx wrote: I still get some good runs going shooting people down..just kinda dont like having 12 deaths and 9 are from chashing.

Before I quit playing this game, I rarely had crashes with the other planes, usually crashes were with the trees.

I don't know if lag is the issue (seems to be a big issue nowadays) but you can develop the skill of long distance shooting with the bullet drop. I have helped many learn where to aim by allowing them to shoot me as we were approaching each other, then giving them feed back (you were a low that time, you were high, etc.)

Long range shooting is not the problem i can do that just fine.
Its the short range when 2 players are going head to head.with the added speed of the planes now the distance between 2 plqnes closes fast each pilot is compensating for drop and raising their nose up.so now you have 2 planes nose up shooting both are in a very shallow climb and shooting. With tilt control even at max (add game lag) its almost impossible to pull away from eachother without crashing
Now is it so bad to ask that zup can try to modify the drop just a tiny bit so someone can get a kill and actually keep flying.
I realize that a pc player can turn much faster and maybe get out of it.i have also realized that tilt control reactions are a touch slower.(so sorry for having a reaction time) so all i was asking is zup adjust the drop so close range head on fights dont end in a crash

Now there are many that say adjust to the game and i have i will peell off early from a head on and hope the guy behind me gets it.i will try to turrn back to finish the kill but many times im only facing moer reds.so i have to keep going.( ie noobs in tanks at base)

I dont want to get rid of the drop but it would be nice to get a kill at close range ( and it is unavoidable in games) and be able to keep flying.

I see so many established and good pilots crashing together.whe there shouldn't be a crash to start with.

Now i think i have explained that well enough.

So can we have a discussion about this now or will it be more. Bs

Is it wrong to ask to fix something that someone has found wrong with the game..its not really wrong but needs to be adjusted

what pees me off is i crash into a plane and due to lag or whatever reasons i respawn and hes still in the air surley if one plane has crashed the other is going to be down too?

Thats another point dog.android is always the crashie. Not the crasher..

But again wouldnt be so many close quater crashes if.zup would just tweak the drop a touch

I don't like bullet drop either. Sometimes I think there is also a right and left bullet "fade" (have to slightly adjust to one side or the other to get the best hit).

I'm not in a squad, so I have to find some of these things out by asking because I don't know where there is a "cheat sheet" that gives info; and half the time you get a smart azz answer.

Other issues in Elite are;

1) tanks are so much more unreliable as to aim and distance (and the new ones are even worse)
2) Shooting from a chute is horrible on a pc where it used to be pretty good
3) as Dog said; 2 planes crash (especially head on) and one survives?
4) trees seem to "grow" as you approach them closely, right into your path
5) often hard to identify friend or foe in the ship belly
6) making you take a chute, even if you don't want it
7) sometimes planes of same model, loaded the same (bombs); I can't catch them in chase turns, but they easily can catch me (no fancy turn maneuvers involved)
the text box on pc's now is horrible; if I message someone, I often have to hit tab & enter to get my key controls back and also have to backspace the text out (from using controls (w, s, c, etc.)