The "simple" game of poker

At face value the card game “poker” is very simple. If it were all just straight forward, whoever is dealt the best cards wins. If that’s all there was to the game it is unlikely it would hold such an appeal. Being “good” at it would make as much sense as being good at the lottery. The way the game comes to life is through metagame strategy, where players base their actions on what cards they believe others have, and then it goes another step deeper by trying to influence what others believe the others have, etc…

The first complicating factor is that some cards are unexposed so no player knows for certain what cards the others are holding. This is where the game comes alive. A good player knows that what other players think you have can be just as important as what cards you actually have. “Every hand’s a winner and every hand’s a loser…” It is all in how you play the game.


In Dogfight bombing games, many players undervalue the less experienced players and the different possibilities available in the game. Head on battles only favor those who can aim quickly. Many established head-on-only players get mad and think others are cheating or being disrespectful when others don’t play the same way. Can you think of any other game where this kind of thinking prevails? Every good strategy game has elements of trickery and deception. Every good player seeks to make the most out of their strengths and weaknesses. This is what makes it so the team with the “best players” does not always win. Many will always support the champions but there will also be those who support the underdogs and those who play with unique style.

Professional poker has become quite the spectator sport lately. It would be boring if the one with the best cards always won. There are many dogfight players who feel they have "invested" in their head on skills and don't like that being challenged by strategic play. Don’t let others tell you how to play dogfight. Fight as you see fit. That is how the game is designed and how Zuperman has said it should be played.

I find watching professional poker EXTREMELY boring. Also, I prefer Jacks or better progressive over Texas hold'em.

I don't know where I'm going with this. Just sayin

Although, now that I think about it, it might be that old Tom Waits song that gave me the love of that game.

"Dealing jacks or better on the blanket by the stairs. I tell you all my secrets, but I lie about my past, so send me off to bed forevermore!"

This ain't a spectator sport, it's more of a drawn out gun fight in the middle of the street. If you are going to compare this game to poker, give me a chance to do some comparison (the only reason is I can't stay in a game right now). If we lived in the old west, and I call you out to meet me in the middle street for a shoot out, then you hid in the saloon and sniped me through the window in the back or from the roof top, yes you would be alive, but you would be known as a coward. Again I will state this as I have done numerous times, I DONT GIVE A RATS ASS HOW YOU PLAY. sneak, spin, drop, carry, you can fly upside down if you like. Why the constant "you are doing it wrong?" You seem to be the one telling everyone how to play. Just play the game McFate. Don't listen to players who tell you how to play, I sure don't.

Hulk, I have always given you kudos for being one of the few players with true grit.

If there is one thing you would know if you remember ever playing with me it's that I am not afraid to face any situation, out numbered, out gunned, whatever. I also am no kill monger, in fact I often don't take kills when I don't need to, especially if it helps clears red defenders from the path of blue bombers, or when flying against noobs. Heck, in dogfights I often prefer to bait people into chasing me in order to make them crash into the bridge rather than just have a shoot out.

The thing that many don't understand is that I don't drop very often. I do believe there are specific times where it makes sense, in fact bz's guidelines on dropping are an excellent paraphrase of my philosophy with the exception that I think it can also be used occasionally to stir things up (kind of like sneaking) and I do know how to escort bombers. Believe it or not escorting can be a real thing and can be quite effective, the fact that most who drop just go turn fight in the middle does not change this.

Its great that you don't give a rodent' s backside how other people play. Too bad more aren't like you. Unfortunately many still complain that the game is ruined when others don't fly strait and narrow. Yes people can be abusive in the way they play by spawnkilling noobs or using glitches but as you know every other thing can be handled with skill and/or brains. In my poker analogy skill is the cards, strategy is the gaming. It isn't a perfect analogy sure, and some may take offense to equating skill with the luck of the draw... whatever. Some don't get analogies. Your comment about cowards on roof tops seems like a better analogy for sneakers than for droppers. I'd say that the problem with most droppers is that they are bringing a gun to a knife fight. I've always said if they do, show them why its a bad idea but don't whine. (Was Indiana Jones a coward or was he smart?)

Anyway, as a head-on guy you don't get many complaints unless they are just about you shreading your way across the map, but ask your friends who believe in sneaking as a tactic what kind of bs they deal with, even from your own squad. What do you think? Is complaining honorable? Are you proud of those who complain rather than take action? I have never seen you discourage complaining or bashing openly. Sure you provide some wise council at the ace hole but never on the forum. (I hope I'm wrong.) Your declarations of personal fortitude are inspiring but they don't seem to gain much more than thank yous.

Again, you are not the intended audience of my posts encouraging strategic thinking. I'm mostly doing it for that noob who is wondering why established players are so mad about him dropping when he gets murdered every run before he gets half way across the map, or the guy who fights tooth and nail outnumbered, desperately bombing tanks and then pushing the reds back only to be berated by some high rank knucklehead who accuses him of ruining the game by dropping. In my case, it's mostly my flying style. I know how to maneuver better than most with a bomb and I still get dropping complaints while carrying. Lol, I've got some choice screenshots, maybe I'll make a thread with them...but that would be kind of bashing, no?

Anyway, if you read my comments as "you are doing it wrong" you are reading it wrong. I'm saying fly how you choose. I'm say that complaining about how others play is pathetic. Bashing is against the rules and discouraging unorthodox styles is limiting the possibilities of the game. If you find that insulting it's not my fault. But again Von Hulk is not my intended audience. It's the cowards the "honorable" players who want everyone to play the way they do who I'm writing about, not you.

Husky Dog {WP} wrote: I find watching professional poker EXTREMELY boring. Also, I prefer Jacks or better progressive over Texas hold'em.

I don't know where I'm going with this. Just sayin

Although, now that I think about it, it might be that old Tom Waits song that gave me the love of that game.

"Dealing jacks or better on the blanket by the stairs. I tell you all my secrets, but I lie about my past, so send me off to bed forevermore!"

Lol, I think it's as boring as watching grass grow, right up to the last hand.

Not bad, but..




P.s.
U on the other hand Mcfate, wonderful job on @ least taking time to explain these issues. Shows u have more intelligence to @ least just blurt things out in an unintelligent manner. There fore I recognize ur ability to being able to attempt to resolve manners civil instead of cowardly by insulting each other. Just because we have in-differences doesn't give anybody the right to insult the next man. Especially in a video game.. & grown man whinning about game play in-differences shows u where the true immaturity is ?

So Mcfate, I @ least thank u for being able to articulate ur point being, without being disrespectful by naming specifically but keeping everything in a general term. kudos to u bro & thumbs up

It all depends are u talking about no hold em poker. The first rule to no hold em is if u don't have it don't bluff,very simple.

[bahsue wrote: It all depends are u talking about no hold em poker. The first rule to no hold em is if u don't have it don't bluff,very simple.

Well bahsue, technically u might have a point, but overall u might be missing the meaning to his analogy lke ur missing an Avatar to ur profile pic ? & don't feel bad, cuz im now missing my profile picture in my signature column ???

Wow, o.k. I resolved the issue.. that were bizarre ? Wow

[bahsue wrote: It all depends are u talking about no hold em poker. The first rule to no hold em is if u don't have it don't bluff,very simple.

Sometimes you can pick up a lot of weak rounds with a simple bluff, then let them think you are bluffing while you have a pair of aces in the pocket.


I've seen a particular "PITA" do a clever bluff. He came in a sneak over the top, as I dropped to chase he first baited me farther away as red bombers were coming in. I turned to go after the red bombers figuring that the sneak was not carrying... oops.
Hangar bombed by PITA
Hangar bombed by PITA

He showed up high again. I dropped and chased and got in a high altitude turnfight. He was not carrying this time. Then the red bombers showed up. I tried to go after them but PITA was on my 6. He shot me down from behind then spawn killed me as i tried to get back in the air. The reds got another two on that run after which 2 blues left.

Was it "cheating", "cheap", "without honor"? I thought it was a damn good play and was far more annoyed with the blues who chickened out. We could have fought back and done a similar thing but the blues called no joy and bailed. I would not want a teammate to bail in such a situation, I'd want them to help me return the favor and kick some ass.


No?

[NLR] McFate wrote:

[bahsue wrote: It all depends are u talking about no hold em poker. The first rule to no hold em is if u don't have it don't bluff,very simple.

Sometimes you can pick up a lot of weak rounds with a simple bluff, then let them think you are bluffing while you have a pair of aces in the pocket.


I've seen a particular "PITA" do a clever bluff. He came in a sneak over the top, as I dropped to chase he first baited me farther away as red bombers were coming in. I turned to go after the red bombers figuring that the sneak was not carrying... oops.
Hangar bombed by PITA
Hangar bombed by PITA

He showed up high again. I dropped and chased and got in a high altitude turnfight. He was not carrying this time. Then the red bombers showed up. I tried to go after them but PITA was on my 6. He shot me down from behind then spawn killed me as i tried to get back in the air. The reds got another two on that run after which 2 blues left.

Was it "cheating", "cheap", "without honor"? I thought it was a damn good play and was far more annoyed with the blues who chickened out. We could have fought back and done a similar thing but the blues called no joy and bailed. I would not want a teammate to bail in such a situation, I'd want them to help me return the favor and kick some ass.


No?

====


You better give up on this one, McFate. There are those who use their brains, and there are those who use their jaws - and preferably, their pack comrades jaws all together, for better carnage.
Those who enjoy the beauty of strategy are, unfortunately, a small minority. Get used to it.

[LB] Pedrinho wrote:

[NLR] McFate wrote:

[bahsue wrote: It all depends are u talking about no hold em poker. The first rule to no hold em is if u don't have it don't bluff,very simple.

Sometimes you can pick up a lot of weak rounds with a simple bluff, then let them think you are bluffing while you have a pair of aces in the pocket.


I've seen a particular "PITA" do a clever bluff. He came in a sneak over the top, as I dropped to chase he first baited me farther away as red bombers were coming in. I turned to go after the red bombers figuring that the sneak was not carrying... oops.
Hangar bombed by PITA
Hangar bombed by PITA

He showed up high again. I dropped and chased and got in a high altitude turnfight. He was not carrying this time. Then the red bombers showed up. I tried to go after them but PITA was on my 6. He shot me down from behind then spawn killed me as i tried to get back in the air. The reds got another two on that run after which 2 blues left.

Was it "cheating", "cheap", "without honor"? I thought it was a damn good play and was far more annoyed with the blues who chickened out. We could have fought back and done a similar thing but the blues called no joy and bailed. I would not want a teammate to bail in such a situation, I'd want them to help me return the favor and kick some ass.


No?

====


You better give up on this one, McFate. There are those who use their brains, and there are those who use their jaws - and preferably, their pack comrades jaws all together, for better carnage.
Those who enjoy the beauty of strategy are, unfortunately, a small minority. Get used to it.

I enjoy my strategy, KILL EVERYTHING RED, WIN THE GAME. Done. Over and over, It never gets old, winning is fulfilling.

For the newer players: Don't let other more experienced players intimidate you.. or tell you the 'proper' way to play.. if you are in a lower level plane (first two tiers) and feel like dropping? Go Ahead! But take note: a top level plane can out-dogfight you while STILL carrying his bomb!(if he's only carrying 1 bomb) So instead of dropping, do something that actually can help your team to win.. either fly in the shadow of really good players (wait till you are accompanied by at least 2 of 'em) or SNEAK! That's right, sneak.. and if you are going to sneak your first decision you need to make is are you going to sneak high or around? Sneaking via high altitude takes a looooooooong time since you are in a low level plane and to get to a high enough to avoid radar seems to take FOREVER! lol! But sneaking around doesn't work as well usually unless you luck out and hit their base when nobody is in the immediate vicinity.. it happens.. but you def can't count on it! At least from up high I think there is a better chance of taking out a hangar.. usually.. but even then you are still slow versus the better planes.. so your timing needs to be good.. watch the mission chat for who just got killed and judge your time to dive accordingly.

I always feel bad for the starters here. I am talking about the very low ranks, level 10 and under. So if I know that they dropped I don't say a thing and let them have some fun with it.

It's usually the middle to upper level players that I am not a fan of them dropping. Here's why. Great, yes they can go around getting some kills. I just simply ask them to hold their bombs because they won't like me if I drop mine. They never listen so I drop and target them. Most of them will end up leaving the game after that. Others will say that they will stop dropping and do.

The way I see it they are better off holding their bombs in bombing missions to improve their play and drop in the mission games as usual. This way they get better in all aspects of the game. They have a better chance of getting kills against me when we both have our bombs versus both of us dropping. When they drop, they pretty much don't have a chance.

Yes, all can play as they want. The thing is all need to be prepared to have their game play matched and even out done. They don't like that so most leave.

Just to clarify:

Tactical play and meta gaming does not mean that all you do is drop or sneak. That would be like always betting on the flop in poker. There is far more to strategy than just trying to get on the enemies 6:00.

Likewise, if all you do when you see a dropper is go on the hunt, unless you can drive the dropper out of the game you aren't doing much to support your team. It makes as much sense for a dropper to try to drive out all the head on guys; if they don't leave you haven't accomplished much.

Hmmm, I was recently talking with another strategic player about some of the myriad strategies available. We were both kind of holding onto the idea that we shouldn't share and save it for squad wars.... well, being that that still hasn't come up on the horizon I'm thinking it may be good to put some basic ideas out there just to stir things up, you know things like how to actually escort instead of just spinning, how to coordinate a sneak with your head-on bombers, etc...

I suppose it would be better if there were different servers for the kiddie pool casual games and another for competitive play.

What do you think?

D93 Big Gunzzz wrote: I always feel bad for the starters here. I am talking about the very low ranks, level 10 and under. So if I know that they dropped I don't say a thing and let them have some fun with it.

It's usually the middle to upper level players that I am not a fan of them dropping. Here's why. Great, yes they can go around getting some kills. I just simply ask them to hold their bombs because they won't like me if I drop mine. They never listen so I drop and target them. Most of them will end up leaving the game after that. Others will say that they will stop dropping and do.

The way I see it they are better off holding their bombs in bombing missions to improve their play and drop in the mission games as usual. This way they get better in all aspects of the game. They have a better chance of getting kills against me when we both have our bombs versus both of us dropping. When they drop, they pretty much don't have a chance.

Yes, all can play as they want. The thing is all need to be prepared to have their game play matched and even out done. They don't like that so most leave.

.

Feel bad for noobs? Did anyone feel bad for you? I know, no one gave me a break. I say kill them all, new or seasoned. DEATH TO THE REDS.

[*M]VonHuLK wrote: [
Feel bad for noobs? Did anyone feel bad for you? I know, no one gave me a break. I say kill them all, new or seasoned. DEATH TO THE REDS.

Are you serious? I hope not. You usually aren't.

If you're the only high rank in a game with a bunch of rank 10s and below, do you still go blasting your way for the win? Somehow I don't think that's you.

To keep up the poker theme: That would be like inviting the neighborhood kids over for a friendly game of penny ante and ruthlessly cleaning them out.

It`s all about taste, McFate. Some like beans, some like rice...

One of the most memorable games I played was one where I entered at the very moment three reds was bombing. Three hangars went down, including my plane, they killed me three or four times during their approach and during their bombing. Then, they kindly evaded, some got killed by my only teammate, a noob on a 2nd lvl plane.

We had just one hangar left, and so had them. Then I asked my teammate to sneak and keep flying on the very southeastern corner of the map, and only approach at my "OK". Meanwhile, I dropped, and defended for long minutes, until one of them said "Damn dropper", and rage quit. Then there was just two reds left (both higher ranked than me), against poor me and my "long gone" teammate. I kept defending, most of my kills done from chute, being killed all the time.

Then, one of the reds said "I will guard our base". Then, I managed to reach their base, bombless, of course. My teammate was mad at me, asking "When are you going to give me that OK?"

I told him to hang on, and when the reds asked me where the hell was my teammate, I said "He probably left, and his name on the roster is probably a glitch". Then, I lured them northwest, and after some seconds, and after geting way more deaths than kills, I said the long-waited "OK", and we won, and I wrote some "hahahahahahaha" on the screen before quiting.

Seconds later, at the world-chat, the reds called me a liar, low-life, jerk, not-honorable player. I never laughed so hard at a red`s reaction.

Some like killing, some like winning fun, non-standard, boredom-free battles.

When in a game of mixed players, experts and noobs, I usually show no mercy to anyone. Sometimes I have to admit I will to a noob.

When faced against all lower ranks, I will either leave the game and let them have fun amongst themselves or try to take it easy on them. What can I say? I have a soft side to me. I will give tips to them and even allow them to kill me. I even go as far to spell it out for them.

I know what I am capable of. I have nothing to prove to myself against lower ranks. It's those players that I know are better than me or at par do I push myself to step up my game.

All in all, I play every game differently. I go about each game according to the players in the game and the flow of the game. Win some...lose some...I think I do ok. I can live with that.

Death to the Reds, this is war, right?
To tell the truth I try to help the noobs, unless they get cocky. Then they die over and over.

[*M]VonHuLK wrote: Death to the Reds, this is war, right?
To tell the truth I try to help the noobs, unless they get cocky. Then they die over and over.

Yeah you softy. I remember being around level 20 where you and I went head to head alone in a game. You took it easy on me and gave some kind words. It meant a lot to me. Thanks!

Believe it or not, you and some other guys that treated me the same way helped make me the player I am. I have much appreciation to you all.

[*M]VonHuLK wrote: Death to the Reds, this is war, right?
To tell the truth I try to help the noobs, unless they get cocky. Then they die over and over.

Was in a game last night, a new player came in red (alone), Gonchon and I were chatting back and forth about the apple problems, the new guy types in "SHUT UP AND FIGHT ME", Lets just say he ended up 3-22. Don't make me angry, you wont..... Well you know the rest. He was very quiet in the next game, lol

D93 Big Gunzzz wrote:

[*M]VonHuLK wrote: Death to the Reds, this is war, right?
To tell the truth I try to help the noobs, unless they get cocky. Then they die over and over.

Yeah you softy. I remember being around level 20 where you and I went head to head alone in a game. You took it easy on me and gave some kind words. It meant a lot to me. Thanks!

Believe it or not, you and some other guys that treated me the same way helped make me the player I am. I have much appreciation to you all.

Hulk loves his Super Friends

.

I saw something in your flying style, I knew where you would end up. A lot of heart, no quit, you figured it out quickly. I only wish you were blue more often.