I may not be aware of a trick to reduce my turning radius but yesterday I got into a turn fight where as both of us banked hard for a few revolutions without any other direction change. After 2-3 complete revolutions the PC player caught me. I recall Longrifle posting similar results a while ago. I was sceptical but now I see what he was saying.

Yep pc.players use that damn joy stick and have a clear advantage over the tilt control. I.use tilt on my phone and.can pull.of some good turns and some.other tricks. And against other devices its always pretty even .but when you get into a game with a pc user it no match they can move faster turn tigher loop like a cat on fire. They know if they twist and turn you can barely hit them. In a flat head on its even and some do keep their sensitivity down so as not to take advantage but most do not. I rember when.something happened and they couldnt fly like gods they went to sup and asked him to fix it they did not like an.even playing field. Well it should.be an.even playing field for all. I was in a game against an eindecker the other day he was a pc user he twisted and turned so fast four plane had a hard time shooting him he would.just twist past you and down you go. I had him.in a wagon wheel i could see his tail for a half turn and i was shoot from behind. So one of two things will happen all us phone guys will eventually drop the game or this will just be a game for pc users only. Either way the pc users win and their goes alot of cash for you zup

This is absolutely true. I don't recall who it was, but I deliberately went in circles while dogfighting him. 2-3 full turns and the pc user caught up, every time. (He said he was on a laptop with joystick). I'm on an android phone, full sensitivity, neutral is a bit tilted forward so I get to full up elevator easily.

Some have said that joysticks or keyboards get to full deflection more quickly than motion. Ok I get that, so we have to move the phone quicker or we'll start the turn in a deficit. But THAT'S NOT THE ONLY EFFECT. The pc turn rate clearly goes tighter, or the pc plane flies slightly faster at the same turn radius. No question.

That said, it's only a little catch-up, and there are some strategies to employ, so I don"t want to over-dramatize the issue. However, dismissing it as non-existent and a figment of our imaginations is wrong. It exists, and it is exactly as described.

Manfred

[*M] bware wrote: I may not be aware of a trick to reduce my turning radius but yesterday I got into a turn fight where as both of us banked hard for a few revolutions without any other direction change. After 2-3 complete revolutions the PC player caught me. I recall Longrifle posting similar results a while ago. I was sceptical but now I see what he was saying.

I went up against a handful of PC win 8 players to prove a point. Every time they were aware of what I was doing. We basically had a turning contest, equally equipped in the game (fully upgraded top plane, twice the Camel, twice the Siemens). Each time I was shot down within three turns something like 2.5 to 2.75. I tried on my android and on my ipad, didn;t matter. I also heard from the guys o the other side that some were on keyboards, some were joystick, so I think its the platform. I'm going to prove this out as well; I just bought a win 8 laptop, top of the line with tougch screen, and it has tilt control, so I'm going to find out empirically if it's the platform or the means of steering. If win 8 with tilt loses to win 8 arrows or joystick, we will know.

I'm not sure if Zup will do anything, as he hasn't so far, but at least with good proof we can make the right argument. Talking to Zeeb and others, the keyboard has disadvantages, but it appears that once mastered there is a distinct turnign advantage.

There are a handful of guys who drop, swirl in to minimize the chnaces to be hit, then just lean on the keys to follow the pipper. Now that it takes more shots to take them down its harder to hit them inbound, and I'm getting like Wumper, what's the use of staying ina game to get pounded. I still think the jumpiness is lag associated with different platforms, but it still sucks. I shot a plane that was loafing on the ground yesterday, after two hits he leaped in the air, was immediately behind me and shot me down before I could turn to react. No sense in staying around there when I don't ahve the same superpowers.

This may have to do with the graphics only but using 3rd person view so I could see my plane while on the ground I tilted my tablet upward and watched the elevator movement so I could gauge the angle I need to tilt my tablet for max effectiveness. Again, I'm not sure that is an accurate measurement but I will say that the angle my tablet had to go in order for the elevator to go past max and begin to "flatten out" was beyond directly over my head. Again, again, not sure it's accurate but I don't know what else I can do.

beware dancing planes in bth hard to hit esspecilly when one or two blue trying to get them when i see dancing plane i leave

You guys are hurting my feelings...jerks!

When Davy and Hulk and TBUILT and Cannon and Bware and Rabbit and Rodama and others on tablets kill me over and over I always say to myself: Thank God I play on a PC...what an advantage I am feeling...

20-25 percent of DF players are windows users. We're not going anywhere. If you could play on older versions of Windows that number would skyrocket so be thankful it's just Win 8.

Love as always,

Comet

OMG.. seriously?? Again? zuperman himself has and often plays on a laptop & has told me along with everyone else that there is NO WINDOWS TURNING ADVANTAGE!

I get shot down by everyone nearly as often as I shoot them down.. WE DO NOT TURN QUICKER THAN YOU! WE DON'T HAVE A TIGHTER TURNING RADIUS! WE CANNOT ROLL ANY FASTER THAN YOU CAN! OUR PLANES ARE NOT FASTER!
*I am speaking for the majority of Windows users.. but not all of them of course.

The only advantage we MIGHT have is depending upon YOUR tilt sensitivity!

And yeah, in ALL other aspects of the game, flying with arrow keys SUCKS!

SOME Windows users have gotten good with X-Box 360 for PC controllers.. (not me unfortunately) and I hear some joysticks are working now (but I don't know which ones yet) but on the whole, flying with arrow keys is HARD! You don't hear me complaining about how in EVERY long-range head to head shooting mission I am getting decimated because YOU GUYS have an advantage over ME! So please stop crying about it or else call a waaaaaambulance

Since all of this is going to be "placebo effect" anyway.........

Aah, I might aswell......

Zebra called it 'a 3D picture in his head', and 'predicting where you would move'.

Many of the before mentioned Apple players get their kills in head on games, and shy away from turnfights,........for the same reason.

I had a flight sim game once in which you ( or rather your screen) blacked out when making your manouvers to fast or tight.
Great idea!!!

Let the planes break into bits if you mistreat it like some do,......especially if shot in the wings a couple of times.
Just look at how they are held together and how the rudder control wires run with pullies and levers.

Great new feature: Partially disabled control after hits in the wings.

Ooh, Off topic?.......welllgot murdalized again by a Windows player.....never thought I would consider going back to Microsoft again.

Can I play with Windows 7 and a Gameboy controller......would like to see the difference. (Although my wife will kill me if I am playing in the laptop too. So if you guys don't hear from me again.......)

Then how can you be catching me in a full turn spin? If you are using a throttle trick then shame on me, but you caught me twice in a full turn dance after 2 revolutions.

[*M] bware wrote: Then how can you be catching me in a full turn spin? If you are using a throttle trick then shame on me, but you caught me twice in a full turn dance after 2 revolutions.

I am NOT going to tell you how I do it.. but I WILL tell you that if I had a clear advantage or cheated in some way this game would have ZERO FUN FACTOR for me! It would be like playing chess and moving pieces while your opponent wasn't looking.. where's the joy in winning from that?!?

Rudolf Rednose wrote: Since all of this is going to be "placebo effect" anyway.........

Aah, I might aswell......

Zebra called it 'a 3D picture in his head', and 'predicting where you would move'.

Many of the before mentioned Apple players get their kills in head on games, and shy away from turnfights,........for the same reason.

I had a flight sim game once in which you ( or rather your screen) blacked out when making your manouvers to fast or tight.
Great idea!!!

Let the planes break into bits if you mistreat it like some do,......especially if shot in the wings a couple of times.
Just look at how they are held together and how the rudder control wires run with pullies and levers.

Great new feature: Partially disabled control after hits in the wings.

Don't forget the bodysuits with wiring connected to our devices so we can feel crashes and bullets too Mr. Realistic...and I'm adding a LOL because I know you don't like them!

[M]Comet wrote:

Rudolf Rednose wrote: Since all of this is going to be "placebo effect" anyway.........

Aah, I might aswell......

Zebra called it 'a 3D picture in his head', and 'predicting where you would move'.

Many of the before mentioned Apple players get their kills in head on games, and shy away from turnfights,........for the same reason.

I had a flight sim game once in which you ( or rather your screen) blacked out when making your manouvers to fast or tight.
Great idea!!!

Let the planes break into bits if you mistreat it like some do,......especially if shot in the wings a couple of times.
Just look at how they are held together and how the rudder control wires run with pullies and levers.

Great new feature: Partially disabled control after hits in the wings.

Don't forget the bodysuits with wiring connected to our devices so we can feel crashes and bullets too Mr. Realistic...and I'm adding a LOL because I know you don't like them!

Wow! Never thought of that!
Well, Zup seemed to have been experimenting with the Occulus Rift (or what's it called), so suit me up!!! Lol

Sure, it's just a game....and it's fun.
But what else should I whine about since I suck at head-ons? (Should I better put a 'LOL' here?)

Finally!

At least ONE more person that actually reads other people's posts!!!!!!

So you are saying that it's a simple coincidence that all the PC win 8 players know some combat trick that the rest of the veteran DF players on other devices don't? Do you really think all of the non-PC players are dialing the waambulance at the same time for no reason?

I proved the turn radius advantage against players equally equipped in all but device, and am happy to repeat the experiment any time with anyone. Zup did not respond, but that isn't a surprise either.

I have also proved that given like devices and equal planes that if you do no more than chase the pipper on full throttle at no time will the opponent get into firing position with doing something other than doing the same (two equally equipped aircraft must use manuever and speed to gain firing positon, therefore a plane that DOES gain firing position doing nothing more than the same has a an advantage).

Zeeb, you and I have discussed this before, and I don't doubt there are disadvantages using keys, but there is one distinct advantage. I don't know yet whether it's the platform of the method of steering, but I'll bring the laptop home tonight and run the tests on the win 8 device with tilt if I can find some willing participants. I don't know anyone else running that combo, but if so please post your experiences against LIKE AIRCRAFT only. Same model, upgrades, sensitivity setting, all things alike other than platform.

The answer so far for non-win 8 guys has always been to catch the win 8 guys out front, and not to stay in a vertical turn for more than a revolution without changing aspect. Now that it takes more than 2 hits that just became more difficult against the swirlers.

Long, I don't know if can be any help but I would participate. Let know a time and place if I can help or watch. I fly on an old POS 2012 Nexus 7 running Android 5 (maybe that's my problem lol (for you Rudolph)).

Esto es totalmente cierto,en una pelea de perros,si sigues a uno que en pc estas muerto cierran el giro mucho antes que tú.yo tengo una tecnica para derribarlos,no puedes ir tras ellos amplia el circulo y esperalos,baja velocidad y subela rapido.esto suele dar resultado,logrif,rabit,tienen razon todos los que Piensan así tienen razon.no puede ser que unos todos los que juegan con pc o mandos tengan mucha mas ventaja qe los que no.y yo no lo queria creer pero es cierto.un dia estaba volando y un rango muy inferior estaba haciendo unos giros extraños,es imposible y mas de novato hacer los giros que hacia casi no podia seguirle,me derribo varias veces.por qe?me.dijeron que utilizaba joestyc,asi no se puede yo hera bastante bueno y creo que aún soy en dodfight,muchas veces ganaba ahora no y el que me cae muchas veces son de pc...que.casualidad verdad?asi el juego en los moviles y tablet va amorir,yo solo quiero igualdad de condiciones para todos.ejemplo: un juego 4 rojos 3 azules...llega la noche y los rojos de día y los azules de noche eso no puede ser,no juegas en igualdad de Condiciones debes señor zuper ser ecuánime con todos los pilotos,no con los que mas dinero te dejen (me refiero a las plataformas claro está)espero que por favor tenga encuenta a todos los pilotos yo llevo mas de 3 años ya jugando y me Estoy decepcionando.espero ppr el bien del juego tenga en cuenta todas nuestras súplicas y que haga lo correcto.se que muchos de los pilotos que utilizan pc u otras plataformas,son muy buenos,pero quiero tener almenos las mismas oportunidades que todos ellos.sabeis lo que algunos pilotos me han dicho?que si yo jugase en pc seria terrible y casi imposible de caer en el aire,yo solo digo lo que otros grandes pilotos me dijeron eh!! Y pilotos que estan de los primeros eso es cierto.yo sin embargo solo pediria mas igualdad un saludo a todos.

Well I don't know about any other Win pilots Longrifle, but if you and me are in a circular pattern chasing each others' tail and I can't see you and you can't see me we're in the same plane with sensitivity turned all the way up, I will not be able to catch you unless I DO use something I know.. we'd just endlessly circle each other otherwise. I DON'T have an advantage.. I did this same experiment you're talking about numerous times, and if I just chase them & they just chase me neither of us will catch the other. Period.

That's just ONE reason I KNOW I don't have a turning advantage.. there are others.. certain pilots I can't catch no matter what device they're on.. zuperman saying the game's physics make it impossible for any device to have an advantage is another example.. plus more.

This is absolutely true, in a dogfight, if you follow one pc're dead close the twist long before tú.yo have a technique to knock them down, you can not go after them wide circle and esperalos, low speed and upload it rapido.esto often succeed, logrif, rabit, have reason to think that all might have razon.no about everyone playing with pc or superiors are much more QE advantage that no.y I did not want to believe but is cierto.un day was flying and a lower range was doing some strange turns, is impossible and more rookie making turns that into almost could not keep me downing several veces.por qe? me.dijeron that used joestyc, so I can not hera pretty good and I think I'm still in dodfight often won not now and dropping me are often pc ... que.casualidad right? so the game on mobile and tablet goes amorir I I just want equal conditions for todos.ejemplo: a game 4 red 3 blue ... comes the night and day reds and blues of night that can not be, do not play on equal conditions must master zuper be equal to everyone pilots, no more money with which buzzed (I mean the clear platforms is) I hope it Please encuenta all pilots took more than three years and I'm already playing decepcionando.espero good game ppr has into account all our prayers and do what correcto.se that many pilots using pc or other platforms, are very good, but I want at least the same opportunities as all ellos.sabeis what some pilots have told me? if I jugase into serious pc terrible and almost impossible to fall in the air, I just say what other great drivers told me eh !! And pilots are the first that's cierto.yo however only more equality would ask greetings to all.

Longrifle, I can save you some time and effort. If you use tilt controls on the windows 8 platform you will get exactly the same results as using tilt controls on any other platform. Period.

Wumper, if you are seeing planes jumping positions IN ANY GAME, you are suffering from the effects of lag. Period.

Different methods of control have different advantages and disadvantages.

A major advantage of tilt control is apparent in the head-to-head scenario. I will use Sir Crockett as an example here as he uses tilt controls. When he is fighting head-to-head, he reduces his airspeed to between 75-85 and gently tilts back to keep the nose of his aircraft straight. This allows him to make tiny adjustments in pitch and yaw to find the 'sweet spot'. Using keyboard or joystick controls, this is extremely hard to do. With keyboard at this speed, you end up having to tap the 'down' arrow repeatedly which makes your bullet spread look like you are firing whilst having an epileptic fit. Using joystick or Xbox controller the movement you have to make with the joystick is so small that you end up looking like you are aiming with one eye whilst poking yourself in the other with a stick.

A major advantage of keyboard or joystick controls becomes apparent in turn-fighting. I will use Zebra and myself as examples here. Zebra uses the keyboard, I use Xbox controller. When Zeb pushes the 'left' arrow key, his plane turns at the maximum turn possible to the left. Same result as when I push my joystick to the left, maximum possible turn. No understeer, no oversteer. In order for a tilt controlled plane to achieve the same result you would be throwing yourself around the room.

Windows 8 players have the same physics applied to our version of the game as every other platform. There is no special 'Bribe Zuperman for super-human powers' button that I have found yet.

I have been playing for nearly a year now and this has to be at least the 6th time this subject has been raised, always with the same answers posted by the same people.

Longrifle, with all due respect, try flying at least 10 games using keyboard controls and 10 games with a controller as well as the tilt controls. It will take you at least that long to get used to the respective controls. You will soon see for yourself the advantages and disadvantages of each of the controller options.

In closing, I hope my extended Dogfight family may finally be able to put this topic to rest. All the platforms currently available will eventually increase to include Xbox and PlayStation players if Zuperman gets his way. There are very interesting times to come, my friends!

Still not convinced

Does anyone know what platform the top ten ranked players use? I'm assuming it is Win 8, right?

[*M] bware wrote: Still not convinced

You will never be convinced until you try it for yourself. You can now play via facebook using Windows 7. Dogfight is available as a Facebook game. Try it for yourself before you label all PC players as having an unfair advantage. I assure you, tilt has advantages over other control options and vice-versa.

some other player has probably already stated this in the thread, but i got sick of the complaining so i stopped reading.... ok here goes
the reason laptop players can catch someone in the turns is because some of use use digital controllers (aka arrow keys nothing fancy) while all tilt users are using analog. the digital input allows us keyboard flyers to have either 100% or 0% turning, while analog will reasonably go between 0 and 100 as well, but is harder and nearly impossible to get to the max 100% so the keyboard users gain a tighter circle because we can hit our tightest turning radius.
i dont know how many times ive tried explaining this...hopefully someone somewhere will listen eventually...

in the meantime, lookout for me bacuse i use pc and am totally unkillable and invincable and i jump all over the screen!!!

[NLR] Finn wrote: Does anyone know what platform the top ten ranked players use? I'm assuming it is Win 8, right?

Finn, I don't know about all of the top 10, but Davy, Hulk, B52 and Wig (before he got banned) all play on iPad or tablet...

|111th| =Anubis= wrote: some other player has probably already stated this in the thread, but i got sick of the complaining so i stopped reading.... ok here goes
the reason laptop players can catch someone in the turns is because some of use use digital controllers (aka arrow keys nothing fancy) while all tilt users are using analog. the digital input allows us keyboard flyers to have either 100% or 0% turning, while analog will reasonably go between 0 and 100 as well, but is harder and nearly impossible to get to the max 100% so the keyboard users gain a tighter circle because we can hit our tightest turning radius.
i dont know how many times ive tried explaining this...hopefully someone somewhere will listen eventually...

in the meantime, lookout for me bacuse i use pc and am totally unkillable and invincable and i jump all over the screen!!!

I think it's entirely logical. The fix we are chasing Zup for is to allow non-PC players to adjust sensitivity such that at some point in the tilt the control max out the flaps/rudder/ailerons such that the plane is in a full turn. That is a fix that could be done via programming. This isn't my first flight game, just the first where I'm using titl controls on android and ipad. I'm interested to see the win8 results. I tried it out a couple weeks ago but the damn thing is so heavy it's not a lot of fun to tilt. Still, it will prove the point.

I want to try it for myself, but I don't want to do the FB thing. I guess my point is that I still wonder how Zeb catches up with me when we are both in a full turn. Obviously there is something I am missing here, but if a W8 player can turn tighter that advantage will always win. They just spin and corkscrew while I try to get 4 bullets to hit, if I can't take em down before they get past me my perceived advantage is gone.
I mean no hard feelings here, and I don't believe I should be calling a waambulance.

[*M] bware wrote: I want to try it for myself, but I don't want to do the FB thing. I guess my point is that I still wonder how Zeb catches up with me when we are both in a full turn. Obviously there is something I am missing here, but if a W8 player can turn tighter that advantage will always win. They just spin and corkscrew while I try to get 4 bullets to hit, if I can't take em down before they get past me my perceived advantage is gone.
I mean no hard feelings here, and I don't believe I should be calling a waambulance.

The point I am trying to get across is that when Zeb turns left, it is 100% left. He then turns right, 100% right. In order to do that with tilt controls you would need physical restraints to prevent you from destroying your lounge. That is the only difference between tilt and keyboard.

Mrs. Rednose will be delighted!



Thank God I've got no life insurance........

When Zup announced the W8 version of this game, I jumped from my sopha, thinking: "Finally, I will be able to play on a big screen, using joysticks, like I used to play with other flight-sim-games! Now Davy Crocket, Max, Desert Rose and other &*$%@$@# will pay for all the spanking sessions they applied at little me!!!"

Well, I tell you what: playing with the keyboard is a NO-NO. Zebra and others are ARTISTS, they are GENIOUSES, and they DESERVE the medals they have. Then, I tried Joystick. I bought TWO JOYSTICKS, yes, you read it right, TWO, and none of them worked. If my wife knows about the money I spent with the W8 license and with the two joysticks, she would leave me, for sure.

Then, I got back to my old Galaxy S2 (with its tiny 4 inches screen).

Then, the game evolved to a point that the S2 cant handle it - at least, not on an acceptable level.

Then, I bought a 7" tablet. A good one. A Nexus 7 2013 (2nd edition). A beast of a tablet. Better in specs than iPad mini. Gorgeous screen.

My gameplay improved a bit, but not a big deal.

Meanwhile, I played the game on several borrowed devices (my brother's tablet, my wife's phone, and many others), just to see if there is any difference between models, screen sizes, etc.

The point is: each device is unique. No gameplay is the same on two different devices. At a first glance, it seems the same, but when you play on a device other than the one you got used to play on, you see that it makes a BIG difference in the end.

All this just to say:

1 - Fair or unfair, this game isnt the same on two different devices. So, forget about "fair play". Take it or leave it, but stop WHINNING.

2 - Considering the HUGE number of different operational systems, different PCs, different phones, different tablets and different refrigerators on which this game runs, no one can blame Zup for any imbalance. Its simply IMPOSSIBLE to put all these different versions running at the same pace, with the same trajectories, the same colors, etc. So, again, take it or leave it... but please, please, please, STOP WHINNING.

Do some of you guys want Zup to make a game suited for YOU? Well, he is a professional developer; enough amount of coins provided, surely he will be glad to taylor a game for you.

But please, please, PLEASE, PLEASE... P-L-E-A-S-E... Stop dusting this forum with complains about how bad this game is. Not good for you? Do what the Master Of Mockers did: go play another game.