Sneakers: A self-inflicted term

I just watched a video of research that studied the movements of over 10,000 players of League of Legends.

The researchers followed the movements and battles of the players and created some pretty interesting videos with their data. What I noticed, however, are the massive amounts of what DF players would call “sneakers” battling it out on the side perimeters in League of Legends. I couldn’t help but consider how the video would look if the study had followed DF. Almost all of the date would be found “up the middle.” Pretty boring data.

I can only speak for myself, but I believe DF would be far more fun, challenging, interesting if “sneakers” became a dead term. In fact, I believe DF should encourage sneakers. The game would be far more successful. Instead of the brainless “up the middle” tactic accompanied by verbal bashing of the few who attempt to flank left, right, or high, players would have to use a bit more brains about their tactics.

I for one want to play many more DF games where enemy fighters surprise me, and I can attempt to surprise my enemy without feeling like a sneak. In short, I argue that we all be more like League of Legends; we should all listen to the “sneaker” inside us.

Therefore, the term “Sneakers” is holding back a whole new dimension of the game. Either we champion “Sneakers” as the smartest players, or we instinctively ban the name not the action.

I agree. I have no issue with sneaking. I mean really, you have the map but your not allowed to use it? Um, sure....
I believe thats why these games go on so long, not that it bothers me. But, instead of bomb the base, it just turns into hours of up the middle pidgeon shooting. Sneak on folks....

I would like to see two or three players "sneak" simultaneously. That would be smart tactics - provide there were 5-6 on the team. I've been playing DF for nearly a year, and I have never seen a double sneak. That would be so much more fun!

I just think the majority of people that play just feel there is some taboo attached to sneaking, so they just dont. I go along with many of the ideals that are complained about, spawn killing, camping (to a degree), etc...
But sneaking as its called is just a tactic used to try and win and achieve the goal. War game folks.....makes sense.

I honestly don't mind sneakers... As mentioned, they make the game interesting... Provided that there are balanced teams... Though I personally find sneaking on outnumbered opponents to be bad form... Then again, you can't blame players on lower levels (and with lower planes to boot) to sneak around during bombing missions... Its practically the only chance they've got aside from flying in formation with a high-ranker...

I have nothing against people who use 'sneaking' as a tactic, as long as the teams are evenly matched. As the servers limit the number of players in a match to 8, having 2 pilots sneak to the enemy base can leave your team wide open to an 'up the middle' attack. It is also obvious after 2 runs, seeing the remaining reds repeatedly, which pilots are going for the 'sneak' attack.

H.L.Finn wrote: I would like to see two or three players "sneak" simultaneously. That would be smart tactics - provide there were 5-6 on the team. I've been playing DF for nearly a year, and I have never seen a double sneak. That would be so much more fun!

feel free to look for some of us NLR, just last night McFate and 420 held down the middle while Disrupt and I made a run to the left (got 3 hangers) then a run to the right side (got 4 hangers) and we almost ended that one in 2 runs!! we only encountered 1 red respawning each time because we let our team know when we were close so they wouldnt create a re-spawner and with two of us coming from behind/side that one red was DOOMED and we both got bombs off!!! It is very fun when you have a teammate flying wingman while you do this!!

If you'd like to fly with us just let us know when you see us! we dont exclude non-members if they are willing!!!

Big Joe:

I was just commending the NLRs for being a great squad. Thanks for your invitation to fly even though I'm not under your banner.

Maybe we should rename "sneakers." Something smart. Something without that negative connotation. Change the language - change the idea.

There are no issues with sneaking. Most people have commented qualifying sneaking as legit when teams are even. Unfortunately, the game is totally unreliable for creating even teams. Hence the norms against sneaking. I mean how important are tactics when your opponents are outnumbered 6 or 7 to 1 or 2. I love the self policing that edges us towards fair play versus simply winning. All wins are not equal. This is not life so style points count.

Sneaking on a team when they're only one or 2 pilots and your team is stacked is the only time it's cheap. I think it's perfectly fine to sneak otherwise. It adds another element to the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with calling it sneaking either.

Keep in mind that some players will call you out on sneaking, camping and spawnkilling just to rattle you. Play your game the way you like.

Thanks for your input and praise H.L.Finn,

As Joe said , we do occasionally use a double sneak. It can be very effective. Even sides do happen sometimes.

My position on uneven teams is a little different here. I actually like playing while outnumbered. Playing 3/5 is one of my favorites because of how people will often play it as though it's even sided yet it can still be a great challenge. I also really enjoy being solo or 2 vs the world. I call this "Survival Mode" and I'm always stoked when I spawn into a game with a bunch of camping reds and only one or two tenacious blues left in the game. I feel absolutely no shame in losing these and I'm usually giddy with adrenaline just from fighting with my-back-to-the -wall! The accomplishment of even hitting one hangar when severely outnumbered is a true rush! ...the "dope"that makes this game so addictive.

My all-time favorite game was one where one of my sons and I played a btb, outnumbered (usually 2/5-6 , sometimes 3/5) we played in the same room and were able to work together on all of our actions. It took about an hour but we won! Yes we dropped, yes we snuck, yes we kicked some butt! For the first part of the game the reds stayed on the straight and narrow but when we got their 5th hangar and they hand only managed 2 they started to try to meet our tactics. The funny thing is they were unable to sneak on us because our "sneak" would see them coming. LOL! We also employed tactics such as calling for help when the reds got to close. (Our sneak would self-destruct to respawn at base) I did a lot of dropping that game and found a great dynamic in "forcing" the reds to drop too. I would keep track of which of them had dropped and when I got shot down I would respawn and focus on the incoming bombers. I would just evade the red droppers to avoid shooting them down. The last thing I wanted to do was send the reds back to spawn at their base while our "stealth bomber" was about to strike. One high point was when all of the reds had dropped and were camping on me....just as our bomber took out 2 more hangars.


Don't get me wrong, I prefer even games and I appreciate the thought when people try to switch to help me out when it's uneven but I really don't mind playing from the underdog side even if it means getting my butt kicked.


METAGAMING!!!!!

Or do you prefer checkers?

Personally I have been in what seems like fewer and fewer games where people get accused of sneaking or get complaints due to sneaking. I think there is a definite trend, just based on my experience, that being a sneaker is no longer a bad thing.

To respond to H.L. Finn I was able to be in a game where my teammate flanked right and I spotted him going so and flanked left. I tried to time it properly and did so when he was approaching the carrier from one side I was approaching from the other. It was interesting enough to be memorable and I think we both got warheads on target.... my teammate was a MORAF after all.

I love sneakers!!! Adidas.. Nike.. Converse.. oh wait. You mean flying using TACTICS? OMG! How dare you even consider such a thing! lol!

I love sneaking... when I first started playing this game with my lowly plane the only way I could help my team Win was by sneaking... so I snuck.. ALOT! So much so that after awhile the reds would say "Where's Zebra?" and someone else would say "Look Up!"

Nothing wrong with sneaking.. or using other kinds of tactics to win... but some people get butt-hurt if you don't carry & fly down the middle of the valley of death head to head.. so I do.. until someone drops and shoots me.. then it's on like Donkey Kong!
(& I usually don't sneak if the teams are lopsided.. but there's no rule saying you can't sneak or drop or camp at anytime!!!)

Yep.when the teams are even sneaking is expected. Even welcome and when the teams are even it all ggod but when it six on two or five on one. Sneaking is cheap.and low. At that point its no longer a tactical piont its bad form. If five or six guys cant get past one or two guys. Well then i dont know.what to say.

darraxx wrote: Yep.when the teams are even sneaking is expected. Even welcome and when the teams are even it all ggod but when it six on two or five on one. Sneaking is cheap.and low. At that point its no longer a tactical piont its bad form. If five or six guys cant get past one or two guys. Well then i dont know.what to say.

I used to think this way too, then i was solo in a bomb the hanger vs 5 reds, after they made 3 runs one said "come guys, there is 5 of us and 1 of him, wtBLEEP is the problem here?"..... then they started to sneak, i took this as quite a compliment and if one or two of us are so tough to get past they must sneak, then you know you have made an impression on those 5 reds! So now i just laugh if off and take my 200 pts for the loss if thats what it comes to

Edit: the only issue i really have with sneaking now is those games (i dont have many of) that there are a few players with 100+ kills and everybody is going head to head up the middle in an epic showdown of bruit strength, those are the games we should respect and not sneak on, I have been in games like this although its rare and then a random person joins and sneaks and its all over 10 kills short of 100 or 150 or whatever it may be, that just plain stinks and those are the games i will NOT sneak in weather i've been in for a while or are just joining!

Oh and I had wondered why people were calling me an old tennis shoe

Sneaking gets extra crafty when you burrow underground and follow the tunnels. Aka, Magic Time! But you cannot be afraid of crashing into the tunnel walls!

Manfraid

Hola amigos!! Si teneis toda la razon yo vuelo por el centro y se me da mejor cada vez pero es monotono.por que no nos damos cuenta de.una vez que un piloto escondido es su unica manera de llegar con exito al manejar aviones inferiores? Hoy jugue.con pajaro asesino o algo asi nos lo pasamos genial cayas de.60 aviones, habia pilotos muy listos y el asesino en consenso conmigo los controlo como atacaban por ambos lados llegaron un par de veces con exito.muy bien genial, asi el juego es mas divertido, tambien desde arriba tubimos que elinar al droper mas de una vez..genial estrategia todo legal por dios ellos intentan ganar como tú.debemos ser mas permisibles con todas estas formas de juego.ya que enriquezen nuestro hermoso juego mas aun.tambien habia goteros genial!!.en esa partida todo el equipo azul nos divertimos, yo se que al igual que otros pilotos domino todas las facetas todas las formas de pilotar, si no puedo utilizar esas maneras en un juego sea cual sea.estoy cortando mi progresion como piloto y no me.estoy divirtiendo.este juego se creo para divertirse entre otras cosas, por que no nos divertimos?.por que no puede volar un piloto sin bomba? O caer desde arriba?o reptar por la ladera? Para que jugamos si no nos divertimos? Si voy sin bomba...lees gotero!! Me estas limitando la diversion es justo? Por que no pensamos en hacer este juego mejor y somos mas tolerantes con la forma de pilotar de los demas? No habeis pensado lo divertido que es ir a interceptar a un piloto que viene por la ladera? O sueltas las bombas y vas a la caza de 2 rojos que apenas se ven a 3ooo pies? Cuando eliminas el peligro es algo genial te sientes feliz de abortar su plan, por que es su plan, por que no utilizar tu plan? El juego esta diseñado, para intentar ganar la mision no veis que limitarte tu mismo o por otros, lo unico que hace es quitarte las ganas de jugar.
una pregunta quereis seguir jugando asi? Por el centro?insultando a quien no lo hace? Merece la pena jugar asi?.ojala esta mentalidad cambie por el bien de nuestro querido juego. (Yo solo pido una cosa...chat de escuadron online)ojala el zuper lo cree.un saludo amigos.

Hello friends !! Yes you have all the reason I fly down the middle and I get better every time monotono.por but we do not realize that once a hidden driver is your only way to get successfully to handle lower planes? Today I played with murderer or something we had a great bird I fell about 60 aircraft, pilots had very clever murderer and the consensus I control me, as both sides reached attacked a few times with great exito.muy well, so the game it's more fun, also from above that we tubimos Droper elinar to more than one strategy all legal vez..genial god as they try to win more tú.debemos be permissible with all these forms of enriquezen juego.ya that our beautiful game even more. also had great droppers !!. in that game all the blue team had fun, I know that like other domino pilots all facets all forms of driving, if I can use those ways in a game WHATEVER I'm cutting my progression as a driver and I'm not divirtiendo.este game was created to play among other things, we do not have fun? .by that can not fly without a pilot pump? Or fall from above?, Or crawl up the side? To play if we do not have fun? If I go without pump ... you read dropper !! Me limiting these fun right? Why not plan on making this game better and are more tolerant of riding style of others? You have never thought about how much fun it is to go to intercept a pilot coming down the slope? Or loose the bombs and go on the hunt for 2 red that barely see 3ooo feet? When you eliminate the danger is something great you feel happy to abort the plan, that is your plan, why not use your plan? The game is designed to try to win the mission not to limit yourself see yourself or others, the only thing it does is make you not want to play.
playing a question you want to follow it? By the middle? Insulting who does not? Well worth playing? .ojala This mentality change for the sake of our beloved game. (I only ask one thing ... chat online squadron) so hopefully the zuper cree.un greeting friends (use translator sorry)

As Lawman, McFate, Parrothead and many others have pointed out, there ARE issues with sneaking when the numbers are unbalanced. However, should this be the case?

Often when a senior pilot or two are greatly outnumber, they can still defend fairly successfully making matches much longer than they should be – See McFate’s post. This works because of quick respawning. But why shouldn’t a full force take advantage of their numbers?

I’m not arguing either way; I can see both sides. But shouldn’t big numbers lead to a bigger advantage? Maybe “sneaking” should never be shamed. Thoughts?

Football's new rules:
:
ALL PLAYS MUST BE RUN UP THE MIDDLE!
NO PASSING OR THE OTHER TEAM CRYS!
"LACE FLAG THROWN!

110 YARD PENALTY! (because you have brains)

My comment to whiners:

See the twinkle in my eye....
....as I tinkle in yours.
Poor baby.

With love,
Paul

H.L.Finn wrote: As Lawman, McFate, Parrothead and many others have pointed out, there ARE issues with sneaking when the numbers are unbalanced. However, should this be the case?

Often when a senior pilot or two are greatly outnumber, they can still defend fairly successfully making matches much longer than they should be – See McFate’s post. This works because of quick respawning. But why shouldn’t a full force take advantage of their numbers?

I’m not arguing either way; I can see both sides. But shouldn’t big numbers lead to a bigger advantage? Maybe “sneaking” should never be shamed. Thoughts?

If an overwhelming force of 5 or 6 pilots can't push by 2 pilots they need the practice of trying. I still say sneaking (and dropping at the end of your runway against such a team) is cheap. If the 5 or 6 pilots just act as team, the outnumbered team cannot stand against them.

All too often an outnumbering team goes at the disadvantaged pilots 1 or 2 at a time and do not take advantage of the numerical superiority. Nearly every game is lopsided. So, yes use the advantage, just don't take cheap shots.

The following is a post I made just over a month ago in the Gunners Inc squad thread, I thought I would share it with you all.

Seeing as everyone else has already, I thought I would give you all my thoughts on 'sneaking'. The way I see it, if the teams are even, then by all means, sneak if that is the way you like to play it. If your team greatly outnumbers the opposition, give them a sporting chance. Personally, being a typical British bloke, I believe in Sportsmanship. This has been noted by several pilots I have been up against. If I am coming in on a bomb run, I will not shoot until the reds are off the tarmac and in the air. Many see this as 'foolish', I see it as giving the reds a sporting chance.

There are many games just in this last weekend where I have been the last red standing. Usually my 'team mates' all leave the game as soon as the odds are stacked against them, only to be replaced with more opposition signing in to the game. I am very used to this, it is what has made me the pilot I am today.

It is all to easy to be bothered about your stats, your kill/death ratio etc. and forget that at the end of the day, this is a game, to enjoy and have fun playing. I will not wreck another pilots fun to try and better my own stats. Stats are irrelevant, having fun and enjoying the game is what it is all about!

There are a lot of pilots out there that don't hold the same values as myself, of this I am very aware, but I WILL NEVER CHANGE THE WAY I PLAY!!!

Respect for your fellow pilots, no matter what squad they fly under, eventually comes back to you tenfold.

That is all I have to say, time for some more CIDER!!!!

All this time I didn't know it was an insult. I thought everyone was complimenting me:)

Your Enemy wrote: All this time I didn't know it was an insult. I thought everyone was complimenting me:)

They thought they were...they thought.

Ooh, League of Legends! I've been playing that RTS game since last year, currently level 22 and still a somewhat active gamer.

Finn (and for anyone who is interested), these researchers were studying the habits of the players in order to optimize the game mechanics to make a cohesive metagame. (sound familiar?)

Look it up; the topic of the LoL (League of Legends) Meta is constantly changing and under review. The playstyles of last year is considerably different than today. Again, this is because both the developers and the playerbase understand that there are infinite ways to play the game.

In LoL, the objective is to destroy the enemy nexus on the opposite side of the map (much like BTB here in DF). There are three main "lanes" connecting both bases, and a "jungle" in between each lane. Opposing teams battle it out, taking down enemy defensive towers and push to the enemy base, while defending their own.



There's a lot more to it, but allow me to make a point:

Most Dogfight players have the mentality to go straight to the enemy base, or in LoL terms, "push middle lane". However, in doing so in LoL, that leaves the other two lanes (top and bottom) completely vulnerable. Your enemies would have the upper hand, surrounding both flanks and having the opportunity to ambush you from virtually anywhere (mid lane has jungles on both sides, where players can "sneak" through).

As such, a generally accepted metagame has evolved within the playerbase. In a team of five, you have two people on top lane, two people on bottom lane, and ONE person on mid lane. Considering this playstyle, you can see how the game devs have successfully designed a game that requires careful thinking, and a playerbase that acknowledges that they must play smart to win. It's a double-edged sword.

Now, I'm not saying the LoL metagame should apply to Dogfight (it doesn't). However, the metagame aspect of DF must to be addressed by both the game developers and the playerbase to make a good game great. Yes, I've made this argument before, but it's incredibly important to the frameworks of a game.

We should encourage smarter play among the players. Let the sneakers sneak, the dogfighters turnfight, and the droppers drop. It's all about playstyle.

In LoL, there is massive amounts of communication and coordination between teammates. Here, there is little to none. There's no need for communication if everyone is doing the exact same thing in a BTB. LoL is a game where your team absolutely needs you, and a team where just one player is not participating/has left is at a significant disadvantage. That's how most teams in DF are working. Imagine, a one team of 5 players all going up the middle with little communication between each other VS a team of three, synchronized and coordinated members. Who would win?

I'm not sure, but playing on that team of 3 looks much more interesting and engaging than playing up the middle with the team of 5.

I don't mean to compare, but this is true, and I believe it's an issue that needs to be addressed. This game has endless boundaries, but it is limited only to what the developers give us and what the players choose to do with it.

Let's not hold this game back, guys. Change can be a good thing!

-Luna

PS: If anyone would like to give LoL a try, it's available absolutely for free on PC and MacBook (leagueoflegends.com). I'd love to play with some Dogfight buddies!

Big*Joe wrote:

H.L.Finn wrote: I would like to see two or three players "sneak" simultaneously. That would be smart tactics - provide there were 5-6 on the team. I've been playing DF for nearly a year, and I have never seen a double sneak. That would be so much more fun!

feel free to look for some of us NLR, just last night McFate and 420 held down the middle while Disrupt and I made a run to the left (got 3 hangers) then a run to the right side (got 4 hangers) and we almost ended that one in 2 runs!! we only encountered 1 red respawning each time because we let our team know when we were close so they wouldnt create a re-spawner and with two of us coming from behind/side that one red was DOOMED and we both got bombs off!!! It is very fun when you have a teammate flying wingman while you do this!!

If you'd like to fly with us just let us know when you see us! we dont exclude non-members if they are willing!!!

That was a great game and using tactics in that way made it one that will stand out in my mind for a long time. I personally enjoy playing against teams using "tactics" if it makes the game interesting and more enjoyable. We all play to have fun and win, but I will not sacrifice mine or others fun for the W. As long as its not a lopsided match or ruining the game, why not?

I do however dislike when I see experienced players drop on lower ranks just to pad their stats. When players are closely matched its adds a dynamic to the game which is fun. I just hate seeing 1 moraf or higher lvl in game with low levels (10 and under) dropping just for a better K/D ratio.

I was in.a game. It started six to one i was the one. I held them.back and fought hard as hell for my base. Some of the reds left leaving three. Thsose three under the command of one used tactics without sneaking and without dropping. They stayed within the radar range. They showed great form. In the end they won they just plain out out maneuvered me. It was a great game for all.of us. But it shows the point of it a big map and the radar range is of good size. You can go wide or high by quite a bit forcing the defender to maneuver and chase. You dont need to fly out of the radar range to do this. The point is when you have even a few against one you can do it without sneaking.

Ya good point d, personally I don't mind the sneakers it makes the game interesting And it isn't difficult to deal with really as long as you keep an eye out for players in game u haven't seen for a while....and its a long drift down if u get shot up there they soon get bored of it...bring em on......

I've come back from quite a long time away from DF and was surprised to find this term of 'sneakers'. Back when I was last here, the big no-nos were camping, spawnkilling and bombdumping. What now seems to be called 'sneaking' was a legitimate tactic. In fact, for players with less experience and less good planes, it might be the only way they had a hope of getting a bomb to the target. You expect us to plod up the middle, maybe make a couple of kills if we're lucky, get shot down by someone with a better plane (or these days, someone who has bombdumped), tank for a bit, get shot up, respawn, repeat? That's not playing. Moreover, it's stupid. Camping and spawnkilling is wrong whichever way you cut it, with the very specific caveat that if you are on a bomb run in, anything goes. Bombdumping I accept as wrong because it's supposed to be a bombing game. Yet the sin of sneaking, I suspect has been created by senior players who like to be able to fly up the middle, blasting away anything in their path and bombing with impunity with their new multi-bomb aircraft because they are too lazy to think about defending.

Elsewhere on this forum there's a thread about bombing from 3,000ft, so it doesn't seem that it's universally regarded as a problem

Edit: I take the point about going off-radar when the teams are very uneven and in your favour. Generally in those circumstances there isn't the need for it, though when committed to defending, it's possible to keep a largeish number of aircraft at bay - as long as none of them bombdump.

TO SNEAK OR TO NOT SNEAK THAT IS THE QUESTION

Of course i love sneakers!!! They make it intresting and a challenge
I was a huge!!!!! Sneaker in my noob days i would still do it but i got bored going on that long journey alone i still go high sometimes though so watch out!!!!

Encourage pilots to sneak... Make things intresting, try new things they did in the real ww1