Since that other thread is locked for reasons of sliding off topic, I'll restart. If mods wanted to stop the on-topic discussion, well I guess you can lock this one. Anyway, picking up, these are my comments on J's response.

First on hiding. Jacklpe, I think J deserves a break here. No player and no mod can be held to the standard of being on the forum every day or few days. But J, there are many players and many games, and a small percentage might know a name change. I certainly didn't, and I have been in-game a lot lately.

Second on spawnkilling and mod kicking. The definition of spawnkilling is raining bullets at the point of spawn, not shooting (from a plane) at a plane after takeoff. Teamkilling and spawnkilling *with a tank* are the bannable offenses (plus teamkilling friendly hangars). Spawnkilling from a plane has never been bannable. Objected to by Z, yes, but not bannable because it's hard to document such a fine line. And camping might be rude in some situations and strategic in others, but never bannable. At least, IMO.

Sure, J kicked instead of banned. But the offense? J, you were watching a stream of text, not watching a runway. Jacklpe has stated what he did, which was after takeoff and into a turn. You didn't know this at the time, but given that you were away from the scene, what he is now saying he did was totally possible from where you were (or weren't) standing. In the opinion of this non-mod, such long-distance kicks can be very shaky, and with Jacklpe's recitation of events, this one sounds unjustified to me.

After all, where do we draw the line between taking advantage at spawnpoint and ruining a game, versus aiming true and dominating other players? There are days that I can't hit the broad side of a cargo plane, and there are moments when I can't miss and am downing one plane after another. We all have those. Would we be at risk of a long distance ban on those good days? I hope not.

Finally, as for your asking him not to camp, I don't find Jacklpe to be very chatty in-game. In-forum sometimes we can't shut him up, but he is often non- or minimally responsive in-game. A non-response to a player comment does not indicate guilt, especially when that player is a mod under a new lesser known name.

Manfred (ex-mod, but also bartender at the Jolly, so my objectivity may be suspect)

Edit: We do appreciate what J and the mods do. It's tough to handle complaints of teamkilling and nail all these guys, and yet never overstep. I think I know a thing or two about that! I just think that this one wasn't the right call, in the end.

Manfred, as always your insight is appreciated.

Something I should have made more clear in my post is that the chat indicated kills every few seconds. There is no doubt that he was camping. Jackpie does not deny this. I think the main beef is in this instance, jackpie does not see it as game ruining, or within a mods authority to take action to prevent if. As weather or not he knew I was a mod is irrelevant. If you run a stop sign, its still wrong weather an officer sees it or not. If that officer happens to see it from an unmarked car, he can still issue a citation. I don't understand why the seperate topics of bans and mutes are even mentioned because neither action was used.

I unlocked and re-renamed the first thread to avoid the appearance that I am afraid of, or am trying to prevent further conversation on the matter.

I would also like to invite anyone who is interested to read the blacklist thread. It gives a clear picture of what the forum members who post there think is game ruining actions.

Soooooo No Monkey Spanking?

Am I camping, If, If, I'm just trying to stay alive. I'm about sick of being shot in the back every time I try to leave..... Everyone and I mean everyone is making this game impossible to play....


I played for over 6 month's without making a point....NOT ONE and I have to listen to all this....Yay...

It was locked exactly for what I said. I agree Jacklpe had valid question and did not delete for just that purpose. But as Jacklpe had given up on that topic and nothing posted referred to it and it was sliding down hill fast I locked it. A good call in my book. This restarted thread which is somewhat back on topic confirms this.

J,

My mention of your unidentification (if that's a word) was for the following reason. When accused of something that we don't believe is a valid issue, we might respond to a known mod because they have a good grasp of the rules and it's worth an explanation or debate. But when the accuser is no one in particular for what we think is a non-issue, a quiet guy will tend to just ignore it and not bother responding. This has nothing to do with seeing anything from an unmarked car.

Bans and mutes are not a separate issue, because along with a kick, they are a moderator exerting control over a situation. All three can be justified and seen as community-improving. And all three can be misused and seen as over-modding.

As for camping, I don't believe that I said or implied that Jacklpe wasn't camping. My only debate was whether a mod should be Acting from long distance.
- You couldn't see whether he was shooting spawnpoint.
- You couldn't see whether he was shooting right after takeoff
- You could certainly tell that he was remaining close to the airport (camping)

My point is, even if you KNEW all three of those, and saw for yourself the situation of camping (were players keeping him from leaving? I turn back to the enemy in BTB if someone shoots at me, and therefore they have changed my departure into a "camp")... NONE of those are moderated offenses! At least, none of them were moderated when I was a mod. They would be Names and Shamed, explained, and then the peers could judge. When did that change?

You can see that I am defining no discernible difference in principle between a ban and a kick in this situation. Sure, they are different in duration, but Jacklpe's objection was ANY moderation over this. A kick is not a nudge. It is a small punishment, but a BIG declaration of guilt of a moderated offense. If you read Jacklpe's posts (and his longer history of posts on this subject) (and he was a pain in the ass to me when I was a mod but I eventually got what he was saying), his problem is simply the application of moderator power where he felt it was not justified. And I tend to agree.

Manfred

What is the topic here Kevy? The title only says All luck and J..... Are we talking. About J lack of hygiene or the pink to-tos he wares when flying?... ... Yes J we've alllll seen them... .. Wish I hadn't but I did.... Or the problem he has with bombing his own hangers?...... No wait thats you... anyway, what's the topic here and there that we got off of?

I appreciate that everyone has their own opinions.

It is was it is.

I was the there when it happened. I saw what I saw. I made my decision based on what I felt was best for the players involved, and for the game at large.

If I made the wrong decision, then I am sorry, however I do not believe I made the wrong decision.

We can what if this to death..cant get away without being shot, covering for my team to come in, etc.....

That was not the situation.

J,

I think you meant "right decision" - might want to edit that lol.

Agreed that the rest of us weren't there to see. But if the net conclusion is that I could get moderated for camping (which I don't do, but sometimes enemy fire causes me to turn back in and kill), while really offensive players are left on the Blacklist thread unmoderated (not a charge, just a reality), then I gotta say, this version of justice sucks.

That's not a personal attack. Just an indictment of the system.

Manfred

J I like you, and I wasn't there and dont know what happened but i do enjoy stirring the pot so to speak. I feel that if you bumped someone from a game you felt you had good reason. That's good enough for me. But Kevy says we were getting off topic??? I didn't see a topic relating to the thread name so I decided to throw in another 2 cents and see where it went. Soo now I'm up to a nickel

I would be much better off to let Manfred do the talking and just shut up. But, I'm not that smart. So I will say this... J... You did not see what I was doing. You were on the other side of the field.... I still do not feel like I was doing anything wrong, and I promise that my intentions were simply to kick the other teams ass. Nothing more, nothing less. But, I'm not gonna win this, for the simple reason that you are a mod, and I am not. Therefore whatever you say, think, believe, etc is gonna be how it goes. I'm not gonna go to Zuperman and complain about anything. He would only do what is smart and correct and stand behind you. If in time, he sees a pattern of you abusing your mod power, I'm sure he will handle it. But as of now, you win by default. That's fine with me.

Thank you for stepping up and claiming your actions. You get my "Im a big boy, not a coward award". If I had of known that it was you, I would have come to you privately regarding all of this, and the general forum would have been spared all of this entertainment.

I do still firmly believe that if you continue to make up rules that make the game unplayable, then no one is going to play. Honestly, with the technical issues that the game constantly has I had almost stopped. I felt a little inspired by all of the new MORAFs and decided to get back in game. My mistake. It has apparently become too politically correct for me. I know I'm not alone in this belief either.

Jackpie, I don't think this is a win or lose situation. You are clearly a talented player, a major contributor to the forum, and a very likable person.

Im sorry that we disagree on this. But it's clear that we do disagree.

Ok J... Here is my offer.

I called you out pretty hard, and that was probably not nice, but I got pretty pissed at being kicked by the "mystery mod" who only said one word. That word was "Camping?" Try being a man of a few more words, or don't bother warning someone at all.

You now know that I think "camping" is a bogus issue as long as you let the other guys get off of the ground. Apparently you think I should bomb, drive away, and let the rest of my team fend for itself. I think that's crap, and it may get me banned, but I'm gonna keep right on slaughtering my enemies when I play this game. I'll let em up, and let em get going. But, beyond that, if I can kill them, I will. If that's a problem, lock my account.

Beyond that, feel free to come on back to the Jolly Roger and enjoy a "muddy blairy". You apparently did what you believed was right, and that's ok with me. I respect a man who abides by his principles. You lose no respect from me for that.

See you around, and hopefully at the Jolly Roger

Jacklpe

Damn... Taking a trip down memory lane can be tough. Apparently I was a little bit pissed off about a lot of nothing here....

J, bud, I'm sorry. I must have been having a bad week. Maybe it was a week the a/c was out on my truck. If I don't have a/c, I shouldn't be allowed to post... Seriously. My big blowup with MOM was the first time the air in that truck went out. Thank god I sold the thing! I might have went totally bananas.

Anyway... Sorry again for over-reacting just a bit here.... I'd still hate to be kicked from a game under those circumstances, but hopefully I would be a little more diplomatic about it.

You are still welcome and encouraged to stop by for a muddy blairy sometime.

jacklpe wrote: Ok J... Here is my offer.

I called you out pretty hard, and that was probably not nice, but I got pretty pissed at being kicked by the "mystery mod" who only said one word. That word was "Camping?" Try being a man of a few more words, or don't bother warning someone at all.

You now know that I think "camping" is a bogus issue as long as you let the other guys get off of the ground. Apparently you think I should bomb, drive away, and let the rest of my team fend for itself. I think that's crap, and it may get me banned, but I'm gonna keep right on slaughtering my enemies when I play this game. I'll let em up, and let em get going. But, beyond that, if I can kill them, I will. If that's a problem, lock my account.

Beyond that, feel free to come on back to the Jolly Roger and enjoy a "muddy blairy". You apparently did what you believed was right, and that's ok with me. I respect a man who abides by his principles. You lose no respect from me for that.

See you around, and hopefully at the Jolly Roger

Jacklpe

I agree with Jacklpe on this delicate topic of camping. To me, even though I was not there, it sounds like he could have been on on air kill streak. Yesterday I was in a major dogfight with several planes and shot down all of them. If you were just looking at the messages on chat, it may have seemed like spawnkilling. I don't know what happened but here is my insight.

I am throwing in my (long) two cents about this. I was not at the incident, so I am reporting my opinions on the topic based on the posts here. I may be 102% wrong, and I am fine with that. I only ask that you give me a few reasons as to why I am wrong, instead of, "you're wrong".

DentinheaD wrote: Am I camping, If, If, I'm just trying to stay alive. I'm about sick of being shot in the back every time I try to leave..... Everyone and I mean everyone is making this game impossible to play....

Why is it so hard to autodestroy? Autodestroy gives you a free, instantaneous ride to the base. It doesn't count in your kdr as a crash. If you want to help your team, go fly out of enemy territory (or onto land, depends on the game) land, get shot, and tank. Bomb away! There are plenty of alternatives to camping. You just need to be creative.

jacklpe wrote: Ok J... Here is my offer.

I called you out pretty hard, and that was probably not nice, but I got pretty pissed at being kicked by the "mystery mod" who only said one word. That word was "Camping?" Try being a man of a few more words, or don't bother warning someone at all.

I agree with Jack on this one. If you are going to kick someone, at least say something more than "Camping". A better alternative would be "Hey, Jack. Could you stop camping and let the reds off the ground?" If you say that, and he continues, then say something like "Jack, stop camping now before I kick you". "Camping?" could mean any number of things, including: "Are you camping, or are you shooting the reds down after they get up in the air", "Why are you camping", "Please stop camping", or "Stop camping before I kick you". If you are going to deal justice, at least do it in a clear way.

jacklpe wrote: You now know that I think "camping" is a bogus issue as long as you let the other guys get off of the ground. Apparently you think I should bomb, drive away, and let the rest of my team fend for itself. I think that's crap, and it may get me banned, but I'm gonna keep right on slaughtering my enemies when I play this game. I'll let em up, and let em get going. But, beyond that, if I can kill them, I will. If that's a problem, lock my account.

Jack, if your team was within radar range, then say something like, "Blues! Do you need an escort?", and then if they say "yes", then fly BACK to then, dial it down on the speed a bit (You are faster than them) and cover for them. If they say "No" or nothing at all, then autodestroy or land and tank.

Manfred wrote: As for camping, I don't believe that I said or implied that Jacklpe wasn't camping. My only debate was whether a mod should be Acting from long distance.
- You couldn't see whether he was shooting spawnpoint.
- You couldn't see whether he was shooting right after takeoff
- You could certainly tell that he was remaining close to the airport (camping)

J, If this was a real life case, by your logic, you are a key witness to a crime that happened halfway across the world from you. You just think you are because you read it in a newspaper. If you are going to incriminate somebody, please have been there (being able to see the colors of his plane) and be prepared to argue your case afterword with irrefutable ample evidence (screenshots, multiple people confirm your story, etc).
So ends my 2 cents. Take it as you wish.

-B

I have no desire to reargue this all over again. I just came across this thread in my travels, and I wanted to apologize to J for being a jerk about it. I took this personally, and should not have. J always proved himself to be a good mod, but this one got a bit heated... Mostly by me. Sometimes you just have to back up and apologize when you overdo it, and in my opinion, after re-reading this months later, I overdid it.