This post from PH and some other posts have got me thinking.
How an incredible amount of time and energy must not moderators put down in this game.
Can we make life a little easier for them?

ParrotHead wrote: Manfred,
Y'all are always doing so much, I don't know how you ever have time to enjoy the game yourselves. This is my opinion, but I don't think it's unreasonable to make offenders come on the forum to have mutes or bans lifted, as the norm. After all, those that reported them had to be inconvenienced in the game and to make the report with photos. You or another mod had to be inconvenienced to investigate each report and take appropriate actions.

Let them take time out of their leisure time to apologize and beg forgiveness. I for one, think it a minimal measure.

PH

I don´t know about you but I think that 24h is´nt by far enough time for a ban or mute if you have manage to be Blacklisted.
I´m with PH, let them come here and convince you moderators that they have learned their lesson and won´t do it again.

Its most frequently the lowranks that are reported.
I have thought of it and I wonder do they even play on a daily basis?
Do they even notice that they have bin banned or muted for a day?

Can we vote if you moderators are going to continue like you are doing now or
if the banned or muted ought to stay banned/muted until the have apologized and begd for forgiveness?

Hopefully that would give you moderators a little less work to do and free up some space in the dedicated memory for other things than when to unban/mute offenders.

So what say you.
Ban/mute for a day or baned/muted until they have apologized?

Here are my (still somewhat raw) thoughts. They always say to praise in public and punish in private. While we don't have that luxury here (since we rely on all of you as eyes and ears), there's still some throttling on how public a lashing can be. We can do a xx day ban/mute (and I agree about the one day being short) and be done, and the player has some option to bring it here or just leave it and suck it up.

Some people can have their behavior adjusted with a relatively quiet temp ban/mute. Oh, they realize, the players here are serious about that, ok I'll back off and play nice. We're hoping this is the majority. Combine that with the fact that some people get even WORSE when you spank them publicly and continue the flailing in public. Take someone with a little more ego than average (hmm maybe we self-select ourselves a little here to this game). Forcing a public apology isn't always required, and in these cases will back a person into a corner, and their egos won't let them integrate into our community.

If we wind up with a blanket rule of banned/muted indefinitely and they can argue or apologize publicly, I think it will actually add work. Yes, it will be a little easier for mods to ban/mute with no calendaring of unbanning/unmuting needed. But I think we will generate more work when those people come on the forum, some gracious but others not. And then don't even mention the barrage of "I've flown with xxx and never saw a problem." Also, with each of these waiting-for-response players today, I am conscious that there is someone who may come on the forum and I need to be able to respond quickly (it always makes sense to wait for the mod who did the action, especially if it was finally triggered by a personal observation). Any time someone has complained and I've not been able to hop right on it, other players have already fueled the fire or they've created an uninformed rallying support that gives the player even more ego to dig their heels in.

There are some cases where indefinitely ban/mute is warranted and we don't mind the eventual debate. There are many others where, from the screenshots, it just seems like a simple temp action with no follow up will do it. Maybe for me, it has some to do with how busy I will be in the ensuing days, and can I monitor the thread and forum topics pretty closely. I don't have cut and dried rules in my head for temp or indefinite, and as you can see, these are evolving among the mods as we see what is effective and what is not.

Those are my thoughts. I'd like to take this to the mod forum for discussion, but you all keep posting thoughts here too. We all appreciate the concern and desire for a streamlined thread. The best blacklist thread is an empty one!

Oh, and for anyone thinking this, whatever solution still needs to be here in public. I think the mod powers are too impactful for us to ever use them unchecked.

Manfred

I do think the 24 hours is to short. If that player does not play in 24 hours they never know. Stretch that time longer I'd say. May be 48 or 72. Second ban or mute should be a permanent thing. It's to bad the player isn't sent a message when they try to log on on why they were banned or muted. Then they know its not just a glitch or server thing.

Lately I've been doing the warning in game and the ocasional retaliation blasting. The good ones are the ones you have a red that will come and handle it right then and there. Most end up getting the message and don't like what happens. I've had at least 4 of them in the last few days. I haven't reported on them. Just wait to see if they show up in a second game or some one else reports them on blacklist then I can add to it if they do. I think they all may have learned there lessons. No reports. So most often they have had a second or third chance.

Moderator Manfred- he who moderates with moderation. I like it.

So, if a step back with Manny's word in my head and look at the situation, I can see there isn't a hard an fast rule. Sure, I get frustrated and say, "screw 'em, they ruined my game and entertainment. Let 'me fry!" Despite the large presents of Texans in the game we ain't Texas. Every offense doesn't warrant a permanent solution.

As Max pointed out, there is some confusion, especially with a ban. If some one is banned for a day or several, they get a message that says they've been banned for 5 minutes. As much as I hate to suggest more programming work, it would make sense if they got a different message. Maybe something along the lines of you have been reported/observed acting in a game ruining way. You have been temporarily banned from the game. Please contact us for details via this "link".
Then it would be private, if they choose to leave it as such.

My original post was more a concern for the time the mods have to spend. Maybe there's not a fix.

I believe most players/people that get muted or banned, should have a chance to reform themselves. Thats why a 24 hr. ban is needed. We can usually tell if they are serious or not about playing the game in a serious manner.....My understanding is that most unruly players dont take the game too serious due to the fact that 1. It is just a game 2. They are most likely very young and 3. They probably have not had much direction from their parents or guardians.....

If we can only remember back when we were young and often made mistakes. We always wanted forgivness and "another chance".........seems as though most would learn after a 24 hr ban...If no lesson was learned after a 24 hr ban, then a perm. Ban is needed. But even after a perm ban is used, I still believe they deserve another chance if they are able to prove themselves. Now i am sure that there are plenty of older players who do not respect the game and the players here. I have met a few unruly older people here who should know better but dont. They deserve second chances too, but I would give them a ahorter rope, seeing they are old enough to know better.....

It was with both the time and the commitment of the moderators, and to one day ban is too short (according to me) in mind as I wrote this.

Maybe not a Permaban / mute directly but certainly more than one day.
I also think that a second chance is something you have to give

The personal message that both Max and PH writes about would be wonderful if it were possible.

It is certainly more people here who have ideas about how we could make it easier for you moderators.
We do not want you to succumb to all the workload you get here
You are doing an incredible job as I think we are too poor to show sufficient appreciation for

So to all of you moderators




from bottom of my heart THANK YOU!

A lot of good thoughts above.

I would like to steer this into a preventative direction:

As a new player there are a lot of unwritten rules to learn. Some of these rules dont get any better than muddy clear, even if you read thousands of posts on the forum concerning them. It could take a long game wasted chatting to infuse an aspirant with your liberal or conservative view of the rules, and leave the new player wondering if you're just some nut.

I propose that players under, ohhhh, let's say rank XX should have to agree daily to the following message viewed before selecting aircraft:

The following can get you muted:
Xxxxxxxx
The following can get you banned and your funds forfeited:
Xxxxxxxx


Also, I like to capture the warning if I decide someone might be a problem, and include that on the BL thread with my other evidence. In regards to the warning, I have noticed new players are often baited into more offensive behavior by rude warnings (certainly I am guilty of this before.)

We are more likely to see an aspirant stop shooting us in the back with, "(players name,) did you know teamkilling can get you banned and u will loose your $??"

Than by killing them in return and saying, "stop, jerk!!"

In regards to hateful, abusive, racist, homophobic, etc., chat I dont think any warning should be neccesary to permenantly ban these chatters.

Good topic!!

Unfortunately in my haste to post something worthwhile, I commented on the blacklist thread before reading Manfreds well reasoned argument on banning. My 9 year old son plays this game and I don't like him exposed to bad language. But I am sure in the playground he hears and probably uses the same language I'm trying to protect him from. It will be the same children who are using this language in game and doing so because it seems grown up. So I will bow to Manfreds superior knowledge and experience in this matter, and what the mods decide I will be happy with. Teamkilling however is a different matter that repeat offenders should have harsher penalties.

Whosethisguy wrote: A lot of good thoughts above.

I would like to steer this into a preventative direction:

As a new player there are a lot of unwritten rules to learn. Some of these rules dont get any better than muddy clear, even if you read thousands of posts on the forum concerning them. It could take a long game wasted chatting to infuse an aspirant with your liberal or conservative view of the rules, and leave the new player wondering if you're just some nut.

I propose that players under, ohhhh, let's say rank XX should have to agree daily to the following message viewed before selecting aircraft:

The following can get you muted:
Xxxxxxxx
The following can get you banned and your funds forfeited:
Xxxxxxxx


Also, I like to capture the warning if I decide someone might be a problem, and include that on the BL thread with my other evidence. In regards to the warning, I have noticed new players are often baited into more offensive behavior by rude warnings (certainly I am guilty of this before.)

We are more likely to see an aspirant stop shooting us in the back with, "(players name,) did you know teamkilling can get you banned and u will loose your $??"

Than by killing them in return and saying, "stop, jerk!!"

In regards to hateful, abusive, racist, homophobic, etc., chat I dont think any warning should be neccesary to permenantly ban these chatters.

Good topic!!

Excellent thoughts!

Just so we are all on the same page as to what is current shown to new players, and have the right baseline from which to propose some clarity and timing of specific new messages to Z, here's what I see (I uninstalled and reinstalled the game):

End-user license agreement: These are a bit buried in other legal stuff, but it's all necessary. Unfortunately the behavior ramifications are not "in your face" which may be helpful. Keep in mind though, every time you add new instructional messages, whatever WASN'T shown at the same time is further buried, and we shouldn't ask Zup to put himself in harm's way by further burying liability limits etc. Anyway, part of the agreement text, which is the first thing you are shown, includes:

"...Neither the author nor anyone who has been involved in the creation, production or delivery of the program does not have the resources to closely monitor the multiplayer chat. Program staff and volunteers are required by policy to pass on credible information, provided by you as a network participant, about unlawful activities or unethical behavior. You agree to the monitoring and logging of game activity while using this program. This is true whether you are talking about your own activities or those of someone else. You also agree to be disconnected, banned or limited in any manner from the multiplayer network for any reason the staff or volunteers in charge deems appropriate, including but not limited to, unlawful activities, cursing or behavior that might be bothering other players. You agree to forfeit any refund in the situation you are banned, disconnected or limited in any manner from multiplayer playing..."

Then there is controls setup, and after logging in with an email address (assuming you already have an account), you enter a game. A newly installed program will give you on-screen instructions for the particular multiplayer mission. I just entered a Bomb The Base mission, and it told me that enemies are always red, and friends are always blue. It also stated the mission to bomb the hangars.

This would be the place to add any clarification, like, "If you shoot at your own teammates or bomb your own hangars, you may be banned and lose your game privileges." Some slight adjustments to the message may be needed for each mission.

Here's my personal quandry (quandries). Would adding something like that start to clutter what are pretty straightforward instructions? Or maybe keep it simple and clarify, after stating who red and blue are, that you should NOT shoot your own teammates. Whether new text is added or not, how long should the instructions be posted to a player? (Currently I think they go away after the first time.) Maybe the solution is just from the positive angle, just keep posting the current instructions until the player reaches a certain rank, as mentioned previously.

I really like Whose's proposal that our collective warnings should take on a positive, instructional theme (at first). "Hey Joe, shooting at your own teammates can forfeit your game privileges." If they give you lip, then have at it. Ok we warned you, and screenshots etc.

Anyway, please don't interpret my post as shutting this down in any way! I'm just trying to distill what the group's recommendation to Zup is. The more specific, the better, and it shouldn't reinvent the wheel.

Manfred

EDIT: Hey sometimes my brain is not fully booted up in the morning. Maybe throw in the clarification message every time the player hits a blue player or bombs a blue team hangar? Yes, it's too late at that point as the player has already impacted his own team. However, right now it warns the player, you hit a friend or something like that. Maybe THAT'S the warning that needs to be big and bad. WARNING: SHOOTING TEAMMATES CAN RESULT IN A BAN OR LOST GAME PRIVILEGES. Then when the player does it a third time (I think that's the limit now), the ban message could be clarified, "You are banned for 5 minutes. IF OTHER PLAYERS REPORT YOU, YOU MAY LOSE YOUR GAME PRIVILEGES."

Manfred, I like the message upon entering the game, as you described. Since the entry level ranks have immunity, the clutter shouldn't be an issue. I think the messages and immunity should go hand in hand, for the same period. Leave the message on screen for the same amount of time you have immunity, maybe a second less.

PH

ParrotHead wrote: Manfred, I like the message upon entering the game, as you described. Since the entry level ranks have immunity, the clutter shouldn't be an issue. I think the messages and immunity should go hand in hand, for the same period. Leave the message on screen for the same amount of time you have immunity, maybe a second less.

PH

Yup. Also see my edit to the last post.
M

Thank you for including the user agreement, Manfred, interesting.

Nobody reads these things, am I right? -until they've been banned.

I think the most bang for our buck here (Zup's work, I mean,) would be as Manfred said, change the banned notification so it says reported teamkillers may be banned permenantly. This could pop up after the first bullet hits a friendly, and best-case, nobody would even have to die before the offender is fully warned.

First, I am impressed by the open, accepting nature of most of the players. I appreciate the zero tolerance attitude of this community as a whole and believe it is one the things that makes the game so enjoyable.
My 2¢ is this:
I like the short list of rules upon sign in: for EVERYONE though- what gets you banned and/or muted.

Minor offenses (need to be clearly defined):
24 hours first offense
72 hours second offense
1 week for third offense
Permaban after that with funds forfeiture.

Major offenses (also needs some definition):
72 hours first offense (required apology in private)
Permaban after that with funds forfeiture.

Seems to me that this could be coded so that mods only have to monitor when to drop ban/mutes for the first major offense. The others could drop off automatically. Given the uptick lately, lets face it, could be a extra revenue generator. So, there's the motivation to make it happen.

If players are warned ahead of time of the consequences and then have pay again for a new account to play after being abusive this may encourage compliance. A sure fire way to get someone's attention is to hit their wallet, not to mention the loss of progress with a permaban.

bellsaj wrote: It was with both the time and the commitment of the moderators, and to one day ban is too short (according to me) in mind as I wrote this.

Maybe not a Permaban / mute directly but certainly more than one day.
I also think that a second chance is something you have to give

The personal message that both Max and PH writes about would be wonderful if it were possible.

It is certainly more people here who have ideas about how we could make it easier for you moderators.
We do not want you to succumb to all the workload you get here
You are doing an incredible job as I think we are too poor to show sufficient appreciation for

So to all of you moderators

from bottom of my heart THANK YOU!

Dido Bell!!! You guys are doing a great job, and though not said nearly enough THANK YOU !!!
I would like to ask something that honestly i dont know how the majority feels.

I get to kinda feeling like a tatler coming on forum, to report some little jurk that cant play nice with others.. I tend to feel i need to take my own advise that i give my little 11yr old buddy. "Nick, it's just a game, no one really dies no one even gets paid. So dont give the power of your own self control and rash judgement away to some person on line your never even going to meet face to face". He plays another multi player game that has similar issues we do here. I shouldnt let players get my goat, and i feel a bit like a five year old rattin out his brother for cussin or not playin right..... Im 43, not 5. So ive adopted a judge/jury/executioners substitute when things go that direction with the said jurks out there. Anyone who knows me at all knows, i dont team kill (deliberately) the oops srry man does happen by my hand. I dont spawn kill, i dont think you can really have a good excuse for that no matter! Regarsless of what bomber and the other supporters of easy pionts say. (its poor form and a sign of lack in character period. Tgese team killers, the majority I've notice fit asurtain profile. rarely are they over level 5, and rarely are they going oit past the runway of there own base. Well if i see some flting close to home lower rankin flyer, my attention is on them. They alway start ofoff with a coue quick rounds to see where there hitting. Guys try to warn them, but that really is futile most times
So if i hear or see rounds with no enemies in site. I turn around and drop hard and in there face direct. Then as they are falling to the ground i tell them this, "DO IT AGAIN JACKOFF AND YOULL NEVER LEAVE THE RUNWAY... SHOOT RED ONLY OR LEAVE NOW... Depending on the belligerence level of tbe player they either leave then, stop, or are gonein less then 5min..... Everyone understands what i had just done except the sleeper in game that dream of doing the TK SK at night
Well i know thats not my place, and frankly id rather not do it. A little less then tattling anyway.
Intrestingly enough i was acussed of team killing, by none other then chris petters (a sleeper). I was affended as hell to be accised of that behaviour... After straighting Chris out and the jackoff left {aliby} said jackoffs name. I begain to think abouty actions.... I would feel absolutely demoralized if some you gun saw what i did and did exactly what youve all heard me complain. Sets a bad example for new players..... So i guess im stuck with tattling right?