And what about the "Sacrifice factor"?



I mean, being myself a less skilled player, sometimes I choose to play the bait, attracting reds, being shot down, and opening room for my teammates to bomb...

Seriously now: I learned that, to be called "the best player", several things needs to be taken in consideration. And by "several", you can read "A LOT"!

So, lets just apreciate Snidley's work, since he is working with all the information that is available. Oh, and you have a good point, Tex.

Edit: For me, the best pilots are those who raise my morale when I see them entering the game at my side. And they aren't necessarily known by their "high skills" - in fact, they don't even populate these spreadsheets at all. And, believe me or not: Mean Ole Devil is the best and clearest example of this morale-raising thing. Just don't ask why, I don't know the answer.

Pedrinho,

I would at the very least appreciate it a little more if he DID include "kill/crash" ratio. So he is not working with all of the information available. Until then its just numbers to determine ability with certain limited aspects of the game and even with the "kill/crash" ratio I appreciate it but just minimaly. Its cool to see how well you dogfight but not to determine ones true ability in the game. The "math done" I believe doesn't conclude full ability within the game we play.

doughens wrote: Pedrinho,

I would at the very least appreciate it a little more if he DID include "kill/crash" ratio. So he is not working with all of the information available. Until then its just numbers to determine ability with certain limited aspects of the game and even with the "kill/crash" ratio I appreciate it but just minimaly. Its cool to see how well you dogfight but not to determine ones true ability in the game. The "math done" I believe doesn't conclude full ability within the game we play.

OK next one I will add kills/crash...all good now?

Nicely done Whip and Tex!

Just my two cents here. Could not resist, maybe I should. I think I will resist.

Yes, these are not accurate representations of one's skill, personality, honor, dignity, moral stature, or any attribute which we can apply to anyone playing this game. These are the numbers available and they can be used in numerous ways(See I said numerous, get it?).

Yes, there are no numbers for chute landings, zep hits, carrier bombings, tank deaths, inadvertent game quits, app locks, ettccc.......These are the numbers available, numbers represent numbers not people, well they do if you do the computer animation, then yes.

The crashes really should not be counted anymore. How many of your crashes are pilot error? How many times have you spawned in and you crash. You hit the invisible wall, you crash. Your on a carrier with brakes on, you start moving because the invisible wall squaches you flat. You land, someone crashes into you, your flying, boom, you crash with nothing around, you take off not realizing the person in front of you is dead stopped or has crashed into the person in front of you ettccc.....

So to get an accurate picture of the whole pilot and his skills. Look into his soul, walk a mile in his footsteps, etccc.... Since that can not be done in this game. We have the numbers we have and that's that.

Thank you whip and Tex for doing this. They could have chosen no too, but thought it would be nice to do so. So thank you!

Math does the body good, or is it don't cry over spilled milk? Whatever the saying is, hope everyone has an enjoyable day, do not forget to thank someone today! Shoot some Red's!

*Disclaimer* This is not directed at anyone and is just my opinion. I am thankful to everyone that is willing to share their talents/knowledge with us here on the forum!

Martin with your logic then we shouldn't even look at kills or death cause how many of those were due to lag or some other glitch not the pilots fault? I think crash IS and should be included. I still think it doesn't make it better due to zep tsnk chute and the like not being in the numbers. Thats a lot of data and it is NOT nitpicky on my part. I think the numbers dont give accurate picture and to me they dont give a full or even close enough to determine the ability of the pilot. My take is if one cant produce numbers that produce a somewhat close representation of a pilots ability mathematically then what is the purpose of the excersize. If one wants to conclude. Well this pilot is a good in the dogfight room. Then thats great. The conclusions should be based on full facts. Not part of the facts. I respect the attemp and the math but dont agree with the conclusions and/or assumptions from the math.

Thanks for all the work you all put into this.

No matter how you look at it, it shows that I am not nearly as good as people think I am

Which is what I've been saying all along!

Interesting stats. I'm just glad to make the front page and not be in the police report.

Thanks for the work you guys put in to it.

Yes Zuperman, we absolutely needed a total games stat or a games won and games lost that we can add together. To late now though.

When I wake up in the morning I'll write out much more on my logic and how I grouped my numbers together from my laptop. Too tough to do here. You have to count ALL aspects of what happens during your flights, the good, the bad, and the absolutely embarrassing. Every activity we do is recorded as a metric somewhere; we might not always see it listed.

More to come in the AM.

I've already apologised to Snidley and Tex, I didn't mean for this to turn into a math bash. I like what they are doing. I only meant to point out my circumstances and how unfair game play in the beginning had a negative affect on me and other's...
Zuperman had a lost game's category. It was removed because people complained. I personally didn't want to see it go. There was Lot's of complaining about it...... He only removed it because of the complaint's. People didn't like seeing how many game's they lost....
Zuperman had a lost game's category
Zuperman had a lost game's category
Zuperman had a lost game's category
Zuperman had a lost game's category

Blue Max Young wrote: Interesting stats. I'm just glad to make the front page and not be in the police report.

Thanks for the work you guys put in to it.

Yes Zuperman, we absolutely needed a total games stat or a games won and games lost that we can add together. To late now though.

Zuperman had a lost game's category
People complained so he removed it....

dentinhead wrote:

Blue Max Young wrote: Interesting stats. I'm just glad to make the front page and not be in the police report.

Thanks for the work you guys put in to it.

Yes Zuperman, we absolutely needed a total games stat or a games won and games lost that we can add together. To late now though.

Zuperman had a lost game's category
People complained so he removed it....

Maybe if we email him we can get it for the number crunching we are doing?

SnidleyWhiplash wrote:

dentinhead wrote:

Blue Max Young wrote: Interesting stats. I'm just glad to make the front page and not be in the police report.

Thanks for the work you guys put in to it.

Yes Zuperman, we absolutely needed a total games stat or a games won and games lost that we can add together. To late now though.

Zuperman had a lost game's category
People complained so he removed it....

Maybe if we email him we can get it for the number crunching we are doing?

Dunno Snidley, When it was removed I wanted Game's won removed also. I know that sounds bad but here's why. One of the complaint's was, You enter the tail end of a game on the loseing side and instantly get a lose. My point was The same happens for win's so remove them also... of course I was being sarcastic...
I guess it's the same in real life. Free cheese is great but it better not have a bit of mold on it or else......

dentinhead wrote:

SnidleyWhiplash wrote:

dentinhead wrote:

Blue Max Young wrote: Interesting stats. I'm just glad to make the front page and not be in the police report.

Thanks for the work you guys put in to it.

Yes Zuperman, we absolutely needed a total games stat or a games won and games lost that we can add together. To late now though.

Zuperman had a lost game's category
People complained so he removed it....

Maybe if we email him we can get it for the number crunching we are doing?

Dunno Snidley, When it was removed I wanted Game's won removed also. I know that sounds bad but here's why. One of the complaint's was, You enter the tail end of a game on the loseing side and instantly get a lose. My point was The same happens for win's so remove them also... of course I was being sarcastic...
I guess it's the same in real life. Free cheese is great but it better not have a bit of mold on it or else......

I think the problem really is that with media and marketing everyone is lead to believe they are epic people. Everyone's a champion, or model, or the greatest in the world at (fill in blank here) in a word, they see themselves as perfect... or maybe at least going to pretend that they are. No one is humble anymore and when they see their lack of perfection in cold hard numbers they get upset. It's like my kids soccer, she is 8 and they aren't allowed to keep score so kids don't get upset. The longer you hide from reality the scarier it is when you see it!

SnidleyWhiplash wrote:

dentinhead wrote:

SnidleyWhiplash wrote:

dentinhead wrote:

Blue Max Young wrote: Interesting stats. I'm just glad to make the front page and not be in the police report.

Thanks for the work you guys put in to it.

Yes Zuperman, we absolutely needed a total games stat or a games won and games lost that we can add together. To late now though.

Zuperman had a lost game's category
People complained so he removed it....

Maybe if we email him we can get it for the number crunching we are doing?

Dunno Snidley, When it was removed I wanted Game's won removed also. I know that sounds bad but here's why. One of the complaint's was, You enter the tail end of a game on the loseing side and instantly get a lose. My point was The same happens for win's so remove them also... of course I was being sarcastic...
I guess it's the same in real life. Free cheese is great but it better not have a bit of mold on it or else......

I think the problem really is that with media and marketing everyone is lead to believe they are epic people. Everyone's a champion, or model, or the greatest in the world at (fill in blank here) in a word, they see themselves as perfect... or maybe at least going to pretend that they are. No one is humble anymore and when they see their lack of perfection in cold hard numbers they get upset. It's like my kids soccer, she is 8 and they aren't allowed to keep score so kids don't get upset. The longer you hide from reality the scarier it is when you see it!

Now you make me feel bad for posting..... LOL.... But you are soooooooo right...... 20 Karma's your way Snidley.....

dentinhead wrote:

SnidleyWhiplash wrote:

dentinhead wrote:

SnidleyWhiplash wrote:

dentinhead wrote:

Blue Max Young wrote: Interesting stats. I'm just glad to make the front page and not be in the police report.

Thanks for the work you guys put in to it.

Yes Zuperman, we absolutely needed a total games stat or a games won and games lost that we can add together. To late now though.

Zuperman had a lost game's category
People complained so he removed it....

Maybe if we email him we can get it for the number crunching we are doing?

Dunno Snidley, When it was removed I wanted Game's won removed also. I know that sounds bad but here's why. One of the complaint's was, You enter the tail end of a game on the loseing side and instantly get a lose. My point was The same happens for win's so remove them also... of course I was being sarcastic...
I guess it's the same in real life. Free cheese is great but it better not have a bit of mold on it or else......

I think the problem really is that with media and marketing everyone is lead to believe they are epic people. Everyone's a champion, or model, or the greatest in the world at (fill in blank here) in a word, they see themselves as perfect... or maybe at least going to pretend that they are. No one is humble anymore and when they see their lack of perfection in cold hard numbers they get upset. It's like my kids soccer, she is 8 and they aren't allowed to keep score so kids don't get upset. The longer you hide from reality the scarier it is when you see it!

Now you make me feel bad for posting..... LOL.... But you are soooooooo right...... 20 Karma's your way Snidley.....

Well your comment is about consistency...if you are going to remove numbers since you see them as inaccurate why not remove all inaccurate numbers at the same time. I wanted more numbers really...some info about zep hits with separate engine vs blimp shots, hits from chute, hits from tank, hits in tank, time you spend in tank, carrier bombs, dogfight average kills... I could go on and on...

My comment about dropping the win's category was more about consistency(since we dropped the lose category). Where I am on the list is fine... But Man did I get spawnkilled when I first started this game,,,,,,
I'm dragging this on too long....Keep doing the stat's with what you have... They are fun to see...

Well the numbers don't show ALL of the information. The ability of ALL of the other aspects NOT shown in the math. When one includes this THEN you will have an accurate representation of how well a person is. Or just look at the currect top 100. I trust Zuperman on how he calculates the top 100. I just don't believe one can make the conclusions and inferences from the math given other than to determine the ability of the aspects of the game that are reflected in the math which are NOT everything. (capitalization is not yelling but for emphesis)

I appreciate the math I don't appreciate the inferences and conclusions that pilots are making regarding the math since the ability of the zep, tanking, chute etc are not included. How can one say "I'm a good dogfight player" if the math doesn't include these aspects? no one is "hiding, etc. etc.".

Zupermans calculation of the top 100 is PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yeah!!!!! for Zuperman

Swop say's: I appreciate the math I don't appreciate the inferences and conclusions that pilots are making regarding the math since the ability of the zep, tanking, chute etc are not included. How can one say "I'm a good dogfight player" if the math doesn't include these aspects? no one is "hiding, etc. etc.".

Zupermans calculation of the top 100 is PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yeah!!!!! for Zuperman

Swop also said prior to that (above): Well the numbers don't show ALL of the information. The ability of ALL of the other aspects NOT shown in the math. When one includes this THEN you will have an accurate representation of how well a person is. Or just look at the currect top 100. I trust Zuperman on how he calculates the top 100. I just don't believe one can make the conclusions and inferences from the math given other than to determine the ability of the aspects of the game that are reflected in the math which are NOT everything. (capitalization is not yelling but for emphesis)


I say:
I don't trust Zuperman on how he calculates the top 100 (sry Zuper). How can I jump from #5 to #1 without playing the game.... That right there is a problem... I passed 4 people without even playing the damn game.
I never even deserved or should have ever been able to make the #1 spot, But to do it without playing the game....Nice....Yea that's fair...
Swop, I feel you made me look like an ass, Yea, I know I can do that on my own. I wasn't complaining, Yea, I know, sure looked like it. I had to apologise to these guy's once already.

Once you reach 0ne million at MORAF, It's all F'd up.....take that F however you want to... F= fixed, freaked, flubbed, F'd up......what ever you'd like....

Leave the guy's alone Swop. If God wanted perfection There wouldn't be a Human on the planet... let's let this one go.. Please.


Edit: I forgot to quote Swop....

Man you Guys lost me at "Math".
I do however really appreciate all the effort and comments that have been put into all of this. All of it helps mold my game play for the better.

I too think the discussion is getting too far away from the fun of looking at the numbers. It is distracting and what does it matter? There are no mysteries in how these numbers are arrived at (unless you are bad at math ) and we know we don't have all the info but we can still play with what we have and talk about the implications can't we? Think of it like in baseball when you were a kid and you had to use 'ghost runners' to take the spot of missing players. It's not perfect but it's still fun.

SnidleyWhiplash wrote: I too think the discussion is getting too far away from the fun of looking at the numbers. It is distracting and what does it matter? There are no mysteries in how these numbers are arrived at (unless you are bad at math ) and we know we don't have all the info but we can still play with what we have and talk about the implications can't we? Think of it like in baseball when you were a kid and you had to use 'ghost runners' to take the spot of missing players. It's not perfect but it's still fun.

I beleve the same thing, Snidley.

Doug......I am agreeing to disagree with your disagreeing with the disagreement...(not sure what these periods mean after a sentence or statement, I put them there for pause effect...heck this is not even a disagreement for me)

You are correct, the inferences as you put them, are very personal to the nature of the player if they are being evaluated which is not the case here. I am certainly not evaluating anyone here. These are just statistical analysis based on the numbers available. I play to the best of my ability that I am able to do at that particular time. Some days I do well, other days I can not even find the other side of the map. I am sure that is the case with a lot of people. As long as you try, you have not failed.

The numbers on the rankings are only based on points, the points earned in game play, it does not use anything else to compute for the ranking. When you hit the million point mark as a MORAF it is then supposed to calculate on the kills versus deaths.

The game from when we first started, un-relentless spawn-killing, being able to kill as a soldier on carrier, no immunity what so ever, it was 90% maybe even more of only phone users, no segregated servers have all changed the game as well. So the newer players will have leaner stats in the beginning, they grew up on the segregated servers, have immunity etccc...But not when they reach the servers we are on.

We all know the numbers do not represent a person as a whole or the player's true ability. For those interested, based on the numbers that are available, this is the result. No one has said this is accurate, it is an exercise based on what is on the rankings. I have never seen a purple elephant fly, but I would like too.

The players on the top 100 certainly do not crash their planes because of their inability to fly do they? So that is why I said crashes at this point should not count.

So where does this leave us? I say take what is there, use the numbers sideways, backwards, anyway possible to see what comes out. I find it interesting. Then split all those numbers among the 100 players, go into a game, find some red names, have fun.

It is nice to see people using their knowledge, talents, and experiences here in this forum.

OMG I OPENED A CAN AND ALL THE WORMS GOT OUT,,,,,, SOMEONE HELP PLEASE..... Man I'm sorry Whip, Tex and anyone else....

Okay, I forgot about the "first million after MORAF".....thanks Dent and Martin for that. Everything short of that, I appreciate Zuperman's calculation and stand by that.

We don't need any "harsh criticisisms" of Zuperman.

I would like to "clarify" my original statement. That the calculation up to the point of "first million after MORAF" is the best calculation that can be done by Zuperman. Its as perfect as its going to be. While we are not all perfect we should still strive to "be all that you can be" and to give our 110% and Zuperman has done that. It would be nice if he might correct the "Million after MORAF" issue but hes done a FABULOUS job and I'm VERY proud of his point calculation setup.

Ok, I'm going to go back to the math, and see if I can further explain what I am intending to determine, given the measurements we have. To quote Snidely: " I understand what you are going for the problem is the attributes we have cannot be added and subtracted since they are independent events. Like kills, hangars and games won don't really relate to each other. I think most valuable player would be the one who has the most games won when they are playing. What we need to find is a way to determine how many games have been played or essentially the winning percentage for each player."

I think we can, and here's why (bear with me here for a bit). Every mission we have is scored somehow, some way. Each mission is either (VERY generally) primarily air to air (dogfight, zep, ctc) or air to ground (btb, btc). Whatever you do to win the mission contributes to a player earning points. So to Swop's points, even though carrier hits are not counted separately in Z's stats, you still get game/promotion points for hitting them with a bomb or tank round. To me, the most effective player is the one that causes the most damage (hangars, kills) while taking the least damage (crashes and deaths). This SHOULD result in having the most games won, theoretically. Like everyone, I agree that there is a significant difference between crashes and deaths. Most crashes are not a result of anyone else's flying, and all deaths come from other players. Both should count when determining how effective a player is.

To Dent's point, the learning curve prior to the servers being separated was very lopsided. However, as the older players have played for longer, this has been mitigated by the sheer number of games they've played, especially at a higher skill level where they're the ones usually kicking the most ass. My Effectiveness calculation was simply a generalization: take the number of kills, and add the number of hangers bombed, and the number of total wins. From that initial number, subtract the crashes. Then take this new number and divide it by the deaths you have. That's the only way that I could figure to show something of a "big picture". It assumes however, that the sample size for all is the same, or close enough to not matter. What is needed is the total number of games a player has played. That would make it so much more accurate and give a truly better picture of a player's capability.

Big Tex wrote: Ok, I'm going to go back to the math, and see if I can further explain what I am intending to determine, given the measurements we have. To quote Snidely: " I understand what you are going for the problem is the attributes we have cannot be added and subtracted since they are independent events. Like kills, hangars and games won don't really relate to each other. I think most valuable player would be the one who has the most games won when they are playing. What we need to find is a way to determine how many games have been played or essentially the winning percentage for each player."

I think we can, and here's why (bear with me here for a bit). Every mission we have is scored somehow, some way. Each mission is either (VERY generally) primarily air to air (dogfight, zep, ctc) or air to ground (btb, btc). Whatever you do to win the mission contributes to a player earning points. So to Swop's points, even though carrier hits are not counted separately in Z's stats, you still get game/promotion points for hitting them with a bomb or tank round. To me, the most effective player is the one that causes the most damage (hangars, kills) while taking the least damage (crashes and deaths). This SHOULD result in having the most games won, theoretically. Like everyone, I agree that there is a significant difference between crashes and deaths. Most crashes are not a result of anyone else's flying, and all deaths come from other players. Both should count when determining how effective a player is.

To Dent's point, the learning curve prior to the servers being separated was very lopsided. However, as the older players have played for longer, this has been mitigated by the sheer number of games they've played, especially at a higher skill level where they're the ones usually kicking the most ass. My Effectiveness calculation was simply a generalization: take the number of kills, and add the number of hangers bombed, and the number of total wins. From that initial number, subtract the crashes. Then take this new number and divide it by the deaths you have. That's the only way that I could figure to show something of a "big picture". It assumes however, that the sample size for all is the same, or close enough to not matter. What is needed is the total number of games a player has played. That would make it so much more accurate and give a truly better picture of a player's capability.

I totally agree, and sorry if I sounded critical in any way. My point was more that since shooting people down and bombing a hangar and a win all take different amounts of time and skill and somewhat relate, what I wanted, if we are going to use all the numbers, is a way to 'normalize' the figures. So that is I was trying to think of a way to gauge how much skill is packed into a kill, hangar, or win so that we can then normalize the numbers along with deaths and be able to perform operations that seems to make logical sense. So if we simply add the good parts, a kill is worth the same as a win and that doesn't seem quite fair. So what about something like (Wins x 20) + (Hangars x 5) + (Kills x 1) all divided by deaths...or something like that...

I think Z's points up to the point of "first million after MORAF" is acceptable

I also wouldn't "subtract the crashes" in this little analysis. If you crash you should get the same subtraction if not more than if you got shot down. One is responsibile for their own crash and protection of ones points. Its therefore should be part of ones ability and effectiveness. and Z accounts for this. That is why I like the Z way in determining "players ability". It would be nice to change the "first million after MORAF"

I think shooting people down, bombing a hanger, bombing a carrier and killing the zep and landing and winning a game are all equally difficult in ability and to determine ones ability should include ALL of the above.

Z's calculation up to the point of the "first millions after MORAF" issue is great. I like it

I don't have the necessary juice left in my brain-sponge to look at more than the most recent page of this discussion. I have one comment:

If all crashes are indicative of a player's skill, I suck several times more than I thought I sucked, and I thought I sucked a lot. Based on that logic, Swop, I suck on average two to ten times per mission just by virtue of how suckily I spawn in. I suck into an invisible collider to the left of the bridge. I suck upside down on a carrier deck. More often than not I suck twice in a free-for-all the moment I enter, before I've ever left the ground.

Damn, I really suck.