Cankid and me are going back and forth by email about the ranking system. Cankid believes that the current system is not good and that it should be based on KDR.

I proposed to add KDR ranking but I asked for feedback on how to display it on the game. Somehow I think there is a misunderstanding from what I said and what is understood so I prefer to post in the forum for everybody to pitch in.

Let me explain first the current ranking system and why it is implemented the way it is.

The current ranking system is based on points and nothing else. The more points you get, the higher on ranking you are. It's pretty simple.
That's it. 

Benefits:
- You can assign more points to certain tasks. Not everything moves around killing other players. Tasks that are more difficult or "boring", also give you points.
- You can give larger point amounts depending on difficulty. For instance, if you are an Aspirant and you kill a MORAF, you get larger points than a MORAF killing an Aspirant. Someone who constantly kills higher-ranked players will get more points than those killing lower ranks. 
- Points move together with your rank. If you are gaining more points, you move up in the ranking and also move up in your rank until you reach MORAF. So a MORAF will be always higher ranked than those under because by definition, they got more points.
- Since you get points for different tasks, the players are not only focusing on killing players but on achieving mission objectives.

Disadvantage:
Sometimes it's not intuitive. You may see that you killed 20 people, and someone else killed 10. That person could be higher ranked than you and you would be surprised. The explanation is that maybe he killed 10 MORAF and you killed 20 Aspirants (I'm going to the extreme for the sake of the example). The points can be achieved by doing other tasks. Maybe you didn't kill many players but you were responsible for bringing down the zep, bombing hangars or destroying the submarine. It's not easy to display those numbers in a detailed stats, since the number of points you get on each tasks depends on the difficulty, your rank vs enemy ranks and so on. You see numbers like "wins" "hangars bombed" and sometimes higher than someone else, but that other person is ranked higher because at his level, he gets more points because it is more difficult.


Now, let's address Cankid complaint. He suggested that we should use KDR for the ranking instead of the existing system. He is not happy with the current ranking system. I'm asking for feedback on how to improve it.

The advantage of KDR:
- Easy to understand. If you have more kills than deaths, you are higher ranked. You can be MORAF or not, and be higher on the rankings.

Disadvantages:
- It won't be intuitive at times. If you are a MORAF how can you be ranked lower than someone rank 20 for instance? It would be confusing. 
- It's not easy to calculate based on who you killed and the number of people. For instance, if you killed 20 MORAFS is not the same as killing 20 Aspirants. But the KDR cannot distinguish that. KDR would not be fair for those players. Another case is that it is not the same to have killed 500/100 than 50/10. The KDR is the same, but the weight is way different. You can implement a formula to take into account the larger numbers but it's super difficult to account also for the rank difference between you and your enemy. If you add all those details, you lose the advantage of the simplicity of KDR. Nobody would know why having a similar KDR you are ranked higher or lower than others.
- It promotes killing enemies and nothing else. People would be farming points by flying around a carrier or a base, they would not care about mission objectives. If they want to move up the ranks, they just need to have the best KDR and could care less about bombing hangars, capturing the flag and so on.
- People would leave the games as soon as they see a good player. If you want to have the best KDR and you cross ways with someone who is known to be an excellent pilot, you would avoid playing against him to not damage your KDR.


That's the logic behind the current system and why it was implemented the way it was. Any feedback is more than welcome.



 

Sounds like someone is trying to put himself at the top or any new second account to be honest, just looking at his numbers vs the current #1 or even Mean who has played forever is way higher were talking 4 to 1 vs 2 to 1, if you did that Cankid would probably be #1. Does that make him better I ask? Mean could start over with a 7 to 1 with a new account and so could anyone else. 
honestly I don't see a problem with the  current system you start taking that away from player's you'll have a lot of upset player's on your hands or possibly even lose some. 
just my two cents 

I personally think the existing system could use some minor adjustments as it rewards those with 'chair time' and resources the most...
that is not always a good measurement of skill, improvement or ethics... The World Rank should include these other factors...
what is the most important stat for a dev?? Will that be different for a newb or a committed player??
KDR should be an added factor but not the only metric...
Just thinking out loud...
subject to editing upon any further considerations...

 

Haven't played much lately. Be back in the winter.

Don't like the idea of KDR affecting rank. Just another thing that will be abused by those chasing the top rank as it is now with the farming of points. Pretty much all the fun has been sucked out of the game because of these things.

Get rid of the rankings all together. No more bitching and whining because someone did this or that. Everyone just plays the game as it was intended. Just my thoughts.

Never understood the KDR thing, so did a little google search and for what I see this would help me; but I think the current ranking system we have now should stay as it is. Like you said this will not work because players would focus only on kills and no one would help on the bomb runs. Players will log out of game before they would get kill just to protect their stats. On the other hand, I think the death or crash box should be eliminated because the number does not reflex a real death.  If someone crashes into you or the game spawns, your upside down or crashes you like it happening to me since the last update; then those are negative points that are not really deaths.  If you change the system now it would not be fair to all the head on shooters that have more death than kills because they have been playing the game focusing on kill not caring how many times they die. The only way would be to do a full reset to all; but players would not be happy with this. Alternative could be to leave the top player list points system as it is and to create another list that measures players KDR only, but this list should be reset every week or month. That way different players have better chances of making the list.

Not a fan of KDR or second accts. 

How many second accts do some of these players have? I know many who have helped Cankid get better at firing and playing. How many of us have helped, let him (and many 2nd accts) practice firing on us, giving tips etc and now they want the top spot. 

Earn it...! 

Some very good points made here so far...
I like Crickets idea of no stats at all, that would sure change the flavor of how the game is played...
AceGirl has a good point about keeping two separate scores...

so, how about this...
a two tiered score card...
one that is long term and keeps a total points record as it is now...
and a second record that is short term and includes KDR and the mission successes and resets every week or month...
maybe make any longer term records above a certain rank only available to subscribers...
anybody can play either war for the first few levels without a subscription... after that, pay to play and keep your stats up...
so, if you only get to drop in once a month for a 1/2 hour and don't give a hoot about stats you can have fun and,
if you have the time and inclination to play all day everyday you can have fun too...
there is room in this game for everyone to have a good time...
 

The idea behind what cankid want is just give everyone a possible chance to be number 1, how the system is now its impossible to take over that place or you have to play 24/7 for like 5years if you just start playing. KDR should not be only factor i agree on that. Those weekly or monthly stats ate actualy good idea! What about showing at end of every game the MVP, there more mvp you get at end of games, the higher ranked you get, this way its possible if a moraf is shot a lot down by a level 20 then that level 20 would have higher rank then that moraf 

all competitive games i play is like this, rank is about skills based on MVP not about what level you are, not for nothing games use this, way better then current system here
MVP would be person who captured flag, bombed most hangars, killed most higher players, did most work on zepelin,... and each stuff would be like 1 point, not like the current system many points for farming on shoot zep. To be clear keep all the points you get for level up (like farming on zep) just dont count it for ranking, only mvp on ranking

My view is no need to change the ranking system as the one who is on top had earned it after playing for so long.You can add a weekly Top Scorer Player Board and mention the top 10 players who earned the maximum point. This will be fair for both Old (without changing current ranking system) and motivates new players who earned maximum points.If possible, the Top Scorer Player Board automatically updates the ranking in real-time or on the daily basis.Shooting a high-ranking player by a low-ranking player should earn more points.Weekly points should be displayed on each player’s stats which get reset on a particular day of the week.

A level 20 will never be ranked 1 even if he is the best player in the game. He will never be #1 at that level, he needs to move up the rankings to the top.

It's like any tournament. A tennis player, when they begin playing, even if they are the best in the world, they don't reach #1 and take Federer out of the ranking in 3 months. You have to pass through several levels first. I don't think there is any ranking system that would allow you to hit #1 in weeks vs people that were playing for years. Those players usually move up the ranks fast, but they don't jump from 500 to 1.

Someone who is level 20 and is truly the best player, will move up the ranking fast because he would be finishing all missions and destroying all top players. He would get more points every single day because at level 20 he is bringing down level 52 constantly. In no time he would reach a higher ranking.
 

Could it be possible to create just  a monthly rankingsystem or just with campaign related scores... 
campaign could be different types of mission to accomplish in a timed period

The titles could be just titles in a campaign or monthly... Not that many as now . Might be enough with 7-8 level of badges of rank.. and have same function as now  that will say..killing higher ranked gives more points)

Everyone starting on a  equal level monthly or initially if there's a campaign running for some weeks or so...

A ranking that resets after a period (month ?) or a mission (campaign) that makes it possible for seasonal players to compete with others on equal level and feel successful and accomplish given goals when they're active...

I never say much (or anything at all) on these topics but here's my take.
For me,  the current system is fine - really ok. Sure, it reflects the time spent in game which is naturally unequal between us somehow. Not only is that life but it also reflects effort (time) input and, to an extent, ability. I side with Zup that in theory there is nothing stopping a level 20 player advancing rapidly to the top with ability (much faster than me with my limited skills).
Clearly, there are those with other claims such as kdr who would prefer a leaderboard that would vault them to the top, and those are ligitimate requests, but do we change the baseline everytime somenody else has a different claim to fame? (I destroyed more tanks etc. etc.).
Aside from some kind of historical re-basing (I used to be a MORAF like many others) I'm ok the way things are, though I can say (because I do it in excel pulling the ranking once per month) is that a regular (weekly/monthly/whatever) activity indicator would be interesting but only as a "nice to have" and not critical. I do it in excel to see each players activity (kills, deaths etc.) and it gives me an idea (without points) if I'm likely slipping backwards or moving up.

We need to be cautious, that if we eliminate the current system, we will only come to grieve its loss later.
And ultimately, isn't is all about just having a good game? Somehow it would also be preferable if the 34/18 drubbing I got from Frits today wasn't recorded (although the points harvest was impressive ) 

There is more to playing than just KDR. It's working with squads as a team, knowing how to bomb or flying with 4-5 reds on your tail with the flag. In the first DF I was a Moraf and I will most likely never be in this game. I still consider the first time the one and only--I earned it. 

CanKid, if you want an award for most kills do so in your squad if you are in one. Many squads over the years have awards or competitions. I agree with Zup, no shortcuts....earn it. 

Dire is right if you want to be at the top work your ass off for it just like in life no short cuts

You can do what you want from me.
The question is, however, are the best players who have the most kills relative to how many times they've been shot themselves?
What I can say with 100% certainty is that a lot of players walk away from the game when dusty and I are in the game (or come into the game), but when there are low ranked ones in the game you see them spinning around number 1, 2,3 .... to pop out of the sky. Are you a good pilot and worthy of rank #1 in this way?
What you achieve with this is that even more noobs will be hunted and they will look for another occupation even faster.
I have a lot of respect for such players as Marko, Volond, Wombad, pegoud,.... there are several others like that, they never leave the game and keep coming back. Those are the real heroes for me. Those who run away are usually still highly ranked persons. I know that there is no noob safe anymore if one is going to make a ranking like this.
 

ok seems lot of players is pro changing rank system and a lot against, can we cut in middle and keep how it is but also add monthly stats? idk if this good for everyone and for zup making this?

I think KDR should be included in the ranking. But I also don't think it should be by points because it allows some to play for hours on end even in empty games and gain many points. Anyone who says that not many points to can be made playing alone is crazy because you gain all the points from the mission and you can go one mission to the next quickly and gain many points in hours. This is why most games don't really have a rank that determines the best player and the best player or the MVP is awarded at the end of each match. Most games there are many players the same rank and the player with the most badges for various achievements in game is the #1 player because in order to gain those badges you must go above and beyond in a match with other players. Anybody can sit in the chair and gain thousands of points and become number 1 rank if they have the time. But a system that places players at the top for special achievements in game against others only makes players want to be in game with others instead of making points to when most everyone is offline. From what I read it seems this is the problem but I may be wrong. I think mysterio has sorta the same idea. There could be a badge for each of the acheivements in the list plus many more....like first person to spot an enemy, first person to engage the enemy, the player who gives most support, the player who destroys most tanks or shoots post parachuters....

I think having the points and keeping tabs on hangers destroyed, kills , deaths, wins ect are great and should be used to determine a players tier. Rank 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-52. Have a top player in the tier 1 division, top player in the tier 2 division, top player in the tier 3 division and so on......that way everyone even the very low ranks are getting a pad on the back for outstanding achievements in game.....right now an aspirant is looking at several years to become even close to the top and when they see that with no "Ata boy" at the end of a mission  noobies lose interest. Nobody wants to play for 7 years to finally be a moraf..moral... yes it can be done in half that time or less but who can play that much making points.? When a player reaches a new tier they should get a badge for that and an award of so many coins to help them purchase an upgrade or something....

well vanessa or mean should really be number one and number two players both are formidable players with the stats to prove it .Unfortunatly they dont have 18 hours a day to play or a brother to sit on the runway while the other one farms hangars /bomber or zeps 

dognamitt wrote:

well vanessa or mean should really be number one and number two players both are formidable players with the stats to prove it .Unfortunatly they dont have 18 hours a day to play or a brother to sit on the runway while the other one farms hangars /bomber or zeps 

Your absolutely right. That is the downside of a point system. Anybody can be number one if they can stand to put in hours on end in the game even when there are no enemies just bombing hangers by yourself for hours you can be number one.
 

The KDR system does not guarantee that players would not do points harvest to have a great point average.  Seen players late at night using 2 accounts just to shoot at it. That will guarantee some good point harvesting. Also, as others have mentioned, this will shift the focus of the mission objective to go after kills. (also have seen this in games) Have been in games with players that are protecting that KDR and after I kill them a few times they go out of the game and leave their team mates hanging.
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I hear comments that it’s not just about KDR, but what are the other reasons? Most of the players are inclined to leave the point system as it is. I get that players are looking for recognition for their accomplishments but it should not come over tramping or diminishing the accomplishments of others. I have done point harvesting and all of you have done it too at one point or another during the game existence; more so when you enter games when no one is playing.  The top 7 to 10 players on DF Elite play long hours, and is that bad? On the contrary, what this game needs are players to be more involved and committed. A casual player can’t pretend to be number one putting minimal effort to the game. Hours of game play are important for you to level. The game provides you with ranks as rewards and those ranks are hard to achieve, so you should feel proud of them as you progress because not everyone commits to the long hours of game play it takes to get them.
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The top players have always experienced critiques from other players and each and every one of them has been accused of doing this or that. I remember a top player that at night was very nice and during the day not at all, and everything we talked about during the night hours of play he did not remember during his play time the other day; he also was accused of playing 24 hours a day. It’s natural that most of the top players commit to long hours of game play.
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I think the current system should be left as it is and maybe if zuperman has the time he can do the monthly or weekly KDR list. This will give more opportunity of recognition to players that are clearly asking for that.  But like I told you this will not guarantee that points harvesting will not occur and most certainly will change the game play of some players. Another alternative is to eliminate the list since once again this seems to bring negativity and resentment amongst players.  
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Of not, nothing is a guarantee in this world. But if a player wants to climb the ranks and be number one he will have to participate and even do some outstanding playing if the system was how mysterio and I explained. Nobody said sitting in the game for hours on end was bad, it just isn't logical to call that person sitting in game for hours number one or the best players be ause most of the ime they're in the game alone or with one or two players....the point system would still be the same if done how mysyerio and I explained.....everyone rank would still be here also...but those points would turn into experience points and should be used to purchase planes and upgrades along with coins. Those points and your rank would no longer have anything to do with being the top player.. Not everyone can sit in the game for many hours and this would give everyone a chance and players would be more willing to participate in the mission if they had to be outgoing players and achieve certain badges before he could reach the next tier level. The person with the best stats and most badges would be the too players not then person who sit in the game for hours bombing hangers with no enemies....who would consider that person the best player? Why because he has more time on his hands? And also I'll reply for other too because many low ranks don't read the forum and some are afraid to post but what thebheck I'll just say that your wrong about why noodles leave the game, same to fritz comment also when he said players leave when he shows up to go find low rank players to shoot....no its not to protect kdr, and uts not because they want easy kills but because they want to have FAIR kills and play against other players in the same tier planes...nothing fun about being in an albostros against a spitfire....I don't know what kind of controller you guys use, maybe a thrustmaster or something because your plane turns tighter and seems faster than others, and your doing barrel rolls around us and shooting us down like nothing that is not fun.  And here I am barely reaching rank 7 or 8 and it literally takes me 12 shots to shoot the two top players and I'm being shot down with one or tow shots. I saw a thread about a shield and from what I read the shield is suppose to protect the noobies from higher rank players by requiring more shots but that simply is not the case and if b anything it is backwards because I can shoot other players my same level and other players maybe level 20 -30 with 5 or 7 shots and it takes them the same to shoot me down but frits and the other dude it always takes me 12 and even when I was level 2 and 3 they were shooting me down 1 and 2 shots. I'm not complaining because I can shoot them down now but nit is frustrating that it takes so many shots....inalmost feel like asking zuperman to remove their shield, lol.....anyway the more skilled player with most achievement badges would be #1. 

To be the top player you must level up through all 52 ranks that the game provides you. At first it was 40 something and almost a dozen players reached that goal and they were all proud of it. How did they reach those 40 something levels? Buy playing countless hours either shooting down reds, completing missions, or yes playing empty games. Just as the ones that are on those top level are doing right now. (Me included). How did the old top players become number one? Exactly the same way we are all doing it now. You say that sitting for long hours of play is not bad, yet you single out the players that play too many hours in the game. There is exactly where you lost me and the credibility of what you are proposing zuperman to do; because you have made your arguments something personal against some particular players. 
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.Your statements sound so familiar to a past post that was deleted last month that became very negative and personal towards me and others. Do not let your petition or ideas derail making it personal towards others. There is no need to make it about that again because your statement has been reduced to try and remove from the top positions the two particular players that you dislike.
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.You also say that somehow we have some magical advantage over other players, statements that were said in that deleted thread last month.  If you want to talk seriously about trying to make a better experience for new players in the game stick to what you really want to fix or change; but with concreate ideas.  You said it was not just about the KDR…I ask you to let us know what other things you propose , and you come back with all I want is that the top players be removed from their positions because they only play on empty games 24 hours a day. (My interpretation of what you are trying to say)
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. This also contradicts what you say that you engage in games with this players and see them killing noobs. So, they do play against other players? It’s not just empty farming games.  Yes, they do play in games against other players, we all do, and we also play in empty games, we all do. Because if you have not noticed there are not many players around. But I have played with and against these particular players you single out and I can say ( and everyone in the community) that they do not abuse or take advantage of new players.
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.I also play many hours of the game and see the patterns of the top players and for you to single out 2 or 3 of them is not fair because all top players do play a lot of hours, in empty games and in full games. Like I told you everyone farms points, what are you to do is there is no one on line to play against?.
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.When you only single out 2 players for doing something that almost everyone does or has done in the past what it shows is that this is not about KDR. And let’s just say it is about KDR, then if it truly is about that don’t undercut your own request by bringing things that will make your cause lose credibility in the eyes of the community.
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. Like I told you, I play a lot and I talk a lot, especially to new players and they have never expressed themselves to me or in games, nothing about wanting to see a change in stats. In contrast many veteran players have expressed to me that this new system would not benefit them at all and push them back in the rankings they have work to achieve. On the subject of getting shot down too fast or easy, that I have heard and that is why zuperman establish a shield to the new players, but some high level players ask for it to be modified. As far as top players shooting down noobs, well I can say that we use not to shoot at noobs and try to help them out teaching them the ropes and letting them play amongst them, but some players complaint about that and now is open season on them.  With the exception of a few top players that help and give chances to the new players, 2 of those are the ones you mention. But on the other hand other top players are not as merciful or helping and yet you do not mention them.
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. You also say that noobs are not happy because they do not have good planes and have to face better planes or WW2 planes. I heard that too, but we all went through that when we started this game YEARS BACK and we had to play, play play loooooooooong hours to be able to level up to and have the rank that provides you the better planes. Also, we had to buy and subscribe to get those better planes. The game is a business, we can’t lose that important aspect and if you want to fly the best plane you must buy it and earn it.  Those are the growing pains from the game and we all went through them; new players must do it as well.
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. I see that more players are in favor of leaving the ranking system as it is and if zuperman has the time to create a KDR list that can be reset weekly or monthly maybe that will help with the anxieties of the players that want recognition over their shooting skills.  But this will not guarantee that KDR farming will occur as I have seen in the past and as of late.
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It’s not fair to all of us in the DF Elite community to change the current standings to a new system after all the game play, we have all done over so many years.
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. Not trying to antagonize you, it’s just that I do play many hours talk to almost all players over many years and I can say we have a unique community. But with a developer like no other that is willing to listen and analyze situations.  So, let’s wait and see.
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Wow this thread just got wierd....I have no idea what most of that comment was about. I recently used the forum for the first time but I can see that maybe it's best to just stay out of here. I got to know a few players in the game and thought I'd give some insight on how I see the point system. Changing the system would not be taking anything away from anybody but would be giving everyone else the chance to also be thet top player but you just do whatever you want ma'am I won't give my 2 cents here ever again.....talk about toxic wow. Some people have to remember that bow days it isn't just little kids playing games most of us are adults and it would be very rewarding to treat everybody that way as well. I'm not a little kid, I don't think like a little kid and the advice or feedback I give is to help everyone have a netter experience. If nobody wants an honest answer then be careful of the crowd you ask feedback from because some of us will tell the truth no matter the concequence.

If you read all of my posts and you say u did not, I was more than respectful with my opinion and assessment of the situation and I stayed clear of mentioning names or nicknames of any player.  As I said we are a unique community and we all have the right to voice our opinion as all that have posted in this thread. (Not only me Sr.)
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.In the end it is a zuperman decision.  I suggested and a few agree that we should keep the Top players list that already exists as it is and create a separate KDR only list that could be reset weekly or monthly; all this if zuperman has the time.  But it seems that you are not open to such a compromise or discussion and are still set on changing the hole system to take down two particular players and taking everyone else’s years of effort with them. Not fair to the community.
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.As I told you in my las post, I am not trying to antagonize you, I am just stating facts that are true and asking you to stay on the subject without bringing division to the community by  singled out a few particular players. No need to do that to bring your point across.  We are a welcoming community but as such you should respect and give credit to our opinion as most of us have been playing this game for many years (2016).  You have been advocating for this change in private with zuperman without considering all of our opinions on this matter. I thank zuperman for bringing it to an open discussion in forum for all of us to see and participate. I guess we will have to wait and see what will happen.
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CanKid wrote:

doth protest too much? me thinks yes.


I don't beleive Im the one who got off topic....
I simply replied to the gentleman's comment
He wrote: I can say with 100% certainty is that a lot of players walk away from the game when dusty and I are in the game (or come into the game), but when there are low ranked ones in the game you see them spinning around number 1, 2,3 

And then you wrote: also have seen this in games) Have been in games with players that are protecting that KDR and after I kill them a few times they go out of the game and leave their team mates hanging. 
 Sorry but if you dont want someone to reply to your statement then dont state such things. And dont try to make it sound like I'm ceesting drama because I replied giving an honest answer. I'll let you guys have your thread I can tell this is not the place for me because I will call a spade a spade. Have a good day. 
 

Sorry cankid that was supposed to quote what Ace Girl wrote and I don't think I can go back and edit....that wasn't supose to be to you.

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I see no drama Sr. I am giving my opinion in a respectful way; in my quote you can see I did not mention any players’ names or nick to get my point across. If we want to work together to create a better experience for all we must try to be respectful and listen to everyone’s opinion in our community.  The thread was brought to light for all of us to participate.
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I know I talk more than fly these days but still love this game and community...
from what I see both sides here have valid viewpoints and arguments for it...
On one side it is pointless to attempt to strive to be the #1 because who can compete with what has already been invested...
On the other side... A lot of effort and time goes into the skills it takes to be in the top ranks and stay there...
so, the ball gets dropped into Zups court as the new physics engine stuff hits...

maybe for now someone who is handy with the info on the forum and game can make a page here or on Discord and keep tabs on the top contender stats and post those each week... at least until Zup can figure a way to show both...

 

I've always thought a crash should be counted as a death.
Noticed some players crash deliberately before the hit number on them gets too high.
If you don't get your plane safely back to base, then you should LOSE points.
In reality those planes were worth a lot of money!
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My 10cents worth.

well, i think everybody arrived to the same conclusion, the ranking system stays the way it is because it wouldn't be fair to long standing players, and a new one is created.

That was my conclusion before I started the forum but I wanted feedback. The question is how to display both rankings and it's not easy task.